Holocaust...or...Holohoax?
 

To stem the flow of crappy threads, i thought i'd bring this one up. Now, i've been having a talk to some of my Neo friends and they're all believers that the Holocaust never took place to the extent that was portrayed.

Now, of course they wouldn't, they're Neo's, but i've been having a peek into the "othersides" argument and though swamped with paranoia i have seen some interesting pieces of information.

Of course i don't believe it never occurred, but from the facts that i've read, it seems almost impossible to have occurred to the extent portrayed.

So, what do you all think? Do you think the Holocaust did happen to the extent claimed, or do you believe it could've been exaggerated as part of the wartime hate propaganda? Also, any facts you could bring up to help me answer this question would be mightily appreciated! And in return i'll post some interestingness from my end.

It happened. And you wonder why everyone thinks you're a racist tool.

I dunno... having personally seen Auschwitz myself, I have a hard time understanding what else could've happened. I think part of the problem is it's hard to comprehend the scale of the atrocity, so you end up asking yourself "how could it have been that big?". I can certainly see why some people disbelieve it. 6 million does seem huge. But when you consider that these concentration camps could take tens of thousands of people per minute, it wouldn't really take long for them to reach a million, and then 6 million. But knowing that it's possible still doesn't help get your head round the simply mind boggling scale of it all...

Try 11 millions, and it pales in comparison to many atrocities such as the purgings of Stalin, Mao's Cultural reforms, the subjugation of indians, etc.

What proof exists that the Nazis killed six million Jews?
None. All we have is postwar testimony, mostly of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and very few claim to have actually witnessed any "gassing." There are no contemporaneous documents or hard evidence: no mounds of ashes, no crematories capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no "human soap," no lamp shades made of human skin, and no credible demographic statistics.

What evidence exists that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis?
Extensive forensic, demographic, analytical and comparative evidence demonstrates the impossibility of such a figure. The widely repeated "six million" figure is an irresponsible exaggeration.

What about Auschwitz? Is there any proof that gas chambers were used to kill people there?
No. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was modified after the war, and a room was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." After America's leading expert on gas chamber construction and design, Fred Leuchter, examined this and other alleged Auschwitz gassing facilities, he stated that it was an "absurdity" to claim that they were, or could have been, used for executions.

Once again, i'm not saying the above is fact, moreso food for thought, if anything. But Stad, if you want to carry on attempting to control peoples thoughts by throwing around the 'R' word, then please do so. I know that i'm not.

They didn't pull the number out of their asses, many statistics show that around 6 million were killed. Estimates cannot be exact, so there's always going to be a varying percentage of error.

Why would you be friends with such scum? Yes, Neo-Nazis are scum.

My grandpa went there and survived, he was a political prisoner...
I went to many camps to see it with my own eyes.

It's sad but it's true

Neos are dangerous people that don't know what they are talking about and that could make this whole hell come back again.


oh to be clear, not only jews were murdered! don't ever ****ing forget this!

The problem with the holocaust deniers is that both sides, the believers and the deniers, both say to each other that they're omitting substantial fact, forensic evidence, etc. and the fact of the matter is, either one could be bullshitting. It would not be uncharacteristic for people who take exception to holocaust denial to outright discredit their beliefs. But at the end of the day, that's all they are, beliefs. It's just a bunch of people making public statements in the hope that everyone will believe them.

Personally my main complaint with Holocaust deniers is that while the people who attempt to forcefully debunk them give them a stronger case, the majority of them are facist anti-Jew nazi supporters. This gives them all considerably less credibility as the unbiased "revisionists" that they claim to be. Deliberately twisting and misrepresenting evidence to conform to their ideological viewpoint in response to the lack of any solid uncontrivertable evidence in lieu of making admissions to the frailty of their case is one last nail in the coffin for me.

Unless someone can show me something that demonstrates beyond any doubt that six million jews was an exaggeration or a fact, then I'm inclined to disbelieve both the deniers and the believers. Niether make a very strong case, and niether use anywhere near enough unbiased sources.

Above and beyond all this, frankly I'm annoyed that a war that happened such a long time ago is still affecting my world. I still have to put up with all this crap and the word "Jew" has become a sort of buzz word that you have to be careful with otherwise people might think you're a nazi. Really, my outlook on it is this; what's done is done, and we're several generations removed from the people who committed this atrocity, so lets stop getting today's generations involved with it, because they had nothing to do with it. The perpatrators are all long dead, the veterans mostly near dead. So it's not worth arguing about. Working out which person is to blame is pointless because whoever you hold accountable, they're all dead now anyway.

history are the roots of our future...

it still has an importance even in 20 years when no one who lived their survives, because Neo Nazis could come back with their tiny minds and start the whole destroy machine again. With looking at our past we can learn some things and not make the same mistakes again

It doesn't have an importance at all. It's clearly rediculous to say "we can look back on it and learn from our mistakes" because that's like saying world war two consisted of "oops! I tripped, fell, and accidentally gassed several million jews, oppressed an entire nation, and went to war with most of europe!".

What can we learn from World War II? Don't become an evil nazi dictator? I'll try to remember that valuable nugget of wisdom.

we can learn not to vote for an evil dictator, like most of neo nazi are ready to do...

plus jews were only some amongs the ones that were gassed

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dictator

Happy.....again!?

'Why would you be friends with such scum? Yes, Neo-Nazis are scum.'

Surprisingly they're not.

The two guys who i know, they're the sweetest Muffies i've ever known and they'd do anything for me, okay, their views are a bit off, but they hardly ever bring their views up. The girl that i know is a lot less extreme, but she's still a Neo and she's just as nice. I don't think you can judge a group upon the bad Apple's, really. It's just as bad as branding Satanists as Devil Worshippers or Christians as Bible-bashing freaks.

The whole "remember our past" thing is Bull, we all remember the Holocaust (or what we think we remember, heh) but nobody does f*ck all for the people who're suffering race extermination in Rwanda. Nobody did f*ck all when Saddam wiped out an Iranian village, and when we did, we got people bitching about it.

Just thought i'd quote a few more pieces of info, like i said, i'm not really satisfied that all of this is fact, or at least non-diluted fact, but it's interesting to ponder over -

How many Jews were living in the areas that came under German control during the war?
Fewer than six million.

If the Jews of Europe were not exterminated by the Nazis, what happened to them?
After the war millions of Jews were still alive in Europe. Hundreds of thousands (perhaps as many as one and a half million) had died of all causes during the war. Others had emigrated to Palestine, the United States, and other countries. Still more Jews left Europe after the war.

What kind of gas was used in German wartime concentration camps?
Hydrocyanic gas from "Zyklon B," a commercial pesticide that was widely used throughout Europe.

For what purpose was "Zyklon B" manufactured?
It was a pesticide used to fumigate clothing and quarters to kill typhus-bearing lice and other pests.

Auschwitz commandant Hoess said that his men would enter the "gas chambers" to remove bodies ten minutes after the victims had died. How do you explain this?
It can't be explained because had they done so they would have suffered the same fate as the "gassing" victims.

Hoess said in his "confession" that his men would smoke cigarettes as they pulled bodies out of gas chambers, ten minutes after gassing. Isn't Zyklon B explosive?
Yes. The Hoess confession is obviously false.

No shit Sherlock. Actually, the United States, and many other countries closed their doors to Jews when they thought about the consequences that could follow. The world had just emerged from a war.

You can't vote for a dictator, that's the whole point. They remove the voting system so that they can stay in power.

Hitler wasn't voted for. He lied and manipulated his way up the ranks. His rise to power is well documented and quite interesting, you should look it up sometime.

And not all dictators are bad. Look at Castro, he liberated his country from a plutocrasy. Sure he may have a scare treatment going, but his country boasts an excellent educational sytem. I envy you Brits, you get to visit there. :p

Just because they may be nice to you, doesn't make them good people. Racists are ignorant pricks. It's funny, you say I shoudn't generalize the Neo-Nazis, when in fact that is what Neo-Nazis do! They discriminate against entire races with their hate mongering. Maybe if they were a little more tolerant towards other people, I'd be more tolerant towards them.

I know a survivor myself, so if he wasn't brainwashed, thats enough proof for me

Well this really is a simple answer. The proof is in the families of the survivors of the Holocaust. This theory is another theory braught up by the left like the whole Moon landing never happened theory.

To be honest with you, whoever thinks the holocaust never happened is smokeing something. I mean come on the families and the survivors know because they were there. I really don't understand the logic of that theory.

Seriously, what is next here? "Did World War 2 realy happen? For all we know, all footage we have about it are fragments of some realy old war movie and everyone who claims to be a survivor is talking shit"?

Get real people. None and I mean NONE!!!! of us experienced the second world war so we are in absolutely NO possition to say what happend and what didn't. I hate it when my mom does it to. She blames my grandparrents for running while her own father was in auswitz. WELL WTF WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO? Sit around waiting for the Germans?!

To be honnest I've quite had it with people who think they have the power to doubt big events like the holocaust. If some old German officer would come along who worked in Auswitz and tell us nothing like that happend, he would still be more credible then anyone here on this forum or some youngh prick in a university who is trying to rewrite history.

The killing of millions of people has been confirmed from both sides. Survivors know what they have seen and heard and have shared this. Ex german troops have also confirmed what went on in the camps.

Um... gas is only lethal when inhaled in big ammounts. If the gas chambers were vented for ten minutes the ammount of gas would never have been enough to kill anyone or be explosive.

'Just because they may be nice to you, doesn't make them good people.'

Their views don't make them bad people, their actions do. And i've never seen them intimidate a Homosexual/non-white in a Homophobic or Racist manner. Don't get me wrong, they are Homophobic and Racist, but they're not the type to say "F*cking niggers/pakis/gooks/fags, you should burn the lot of them" In fact, they cannot stand that sort of stereotypical Neo.

'Maybe if they were a little more tolerant towards other people, I'd be more tolerant towards them.'

That's more or less the same view that PA has towards the Muslims "Oh, they hate us, i'll hate them!" and yet i'm sure you'd agree it's a stupid attitude to have.

'Um... gas is only lethal when inhaled in big ammounts. If the gas chambers were vented for ten minutes the ammount of gas would never have been enough to kill anyone or be explosive.'

How long does it take to ventilate an area after fumigation with Zyklon B?
Normally about 20 hours. The whole procedure is very complicated and dangerous. Gas masks must be used, and only trained technicians are employed.

'I mean come on the families and the survivors know because they were there.'

How could a mass extermination program have been kept secret from those who were scheduled to be killed?
It couldn't have been kept secret. The fact is that there were no mass gassings. The extermination stories originated as wartime atrocity propaganda.

Havoc, I really agree with what you're saying, but that statement brings up counter statements. What about the big bang? We weren't there but we beloieve it. Or god? The christians weren't there at Genesis, but they bleieve he exists. It's not about what facts you know, it's what you believe. And plus, in our world, Havoc, we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it "history." Lol. The point is, whether we landed on the moon or the Nazis led a genocide, it's whats now thats happening thats important. History is like Reality television. It's really reality but as long as it has a good out come for the majority of people, than it doesn't matter what its name is. And I will defend my TV wacthing viewpoints. :p

Well, if we have to believe Christians, animals like Dinosaurs never existed in the first place (I mean, I don't recall ever seeing dinosaurs being mentioned in the bible for as far as I know it...) yet we have prove they did exist. What theory is more credible? Big bang or God?

But I don't want to make this ANOTHER religion thread as I'm getting sick of em.

What my point is, is that the same thing goes on with this. There is a theory that is actualy proven and people have shared there experience to this, German officers have confirmed stuff. Out of the millions of survivors from the concentration camps, maybe a hand full denies or doesn't know what happend and were just glad to be alive in the first place. In this case it indeed isn't about facts, but it isn't what we believe either. It's about what is the more likely theory.

So lets see what we have? All the surviving inhabitants of the concentration camps, claiming they have seen/heard/whatever the gassing. German officers/captains/other high ranking guys confirming they did in fact gas people. And mind you, we are talking by the millions. That must be one heck of a haux, to have people from all over europe who never met each other all tell the same story. (Now thats something right there for ya Bush administration! [/sarcasm])
And we have a few thousand Neo-Nazi's(!!!!!!) who never actualy experienced the war in the first place, now trying to claim that it never happend?

Think reasonable, thinking of the amount of people who are standing VS each other right now, what is more likely?

It is described that after the victims had died, fans were turned on to allow the gas to escape. Very little gas remained, too little to have any affect on the men who removed the dead bodies.

Hydrogen cyanide (Zyklon B) forms a foul tasting compound when it combines with tobacco smoke. For this reason, the men who removed the bodies kept a lit cigarette in their mouth while they were working in the gas chambers, as they receive an early warning against possible cyanide poisoning.

It takes a Zyklon B concentration of 300 parts per million to kill a human within a few minutes. Once the fans had been turned on the concentration of Zyklon B would be no more than 5 to 10 parts per million. Zyklon B is only explosive in air at concentrations over 56,000 parts per million. Therefore the Hoess confession is accurate, and the men only ever smoked the cigarettes to protect them from the possibility of a failed extractor fan, or an abnormally high concentration of the gas that couldn't be fully removed in time. There was never enough gas in the chambers under normal circumstances to kill them or to explode, and if there was enough to kill them, the taste in their mouth would warn them and they would exit immediately before the gas had a chance to harm them.

:nonono:

Havoc, we know dinosaurs probably existed because WE FOUND SKELETONS OF THEM!

Buhh... I'm a Christian and believe dinosaurs existed and the possibility of the Big Bang (although I think God was responsible), so please don't label all of us as crazies.

Are... are you suggesting Liberals are responsible for all of these theories? o_O

Moving on to on-topicness, I don't really believe it was exaggerated with all the survivors, concentration camp sites, photos of mass graves and other horrors. And let's not forget the Diary of Anne Frank and such.

Someone said there were no lamp shades made of human skin, but I'm positive I saw one on television once along with a rug made of human hair, but, of course, those very well could have been fake.

And eve if the Hlocaust was a lie, why would they make something this big up?

What about the familiar photographs and film footage taken in the liberated German camps showing piles of emaciated corpses? Are these faked?
Photographs can be faked, but it's far easier merely to add a misleading caption to a photo or commentary to a piece of footage. Piles of emaciated corpses do not mean that these people were "gassed" or deliberately starved to death. Actually, these were tragic victims of raging epidemics or of starvation due to a lack of food in the camps toward the end of the war.

Did the Nazis and the Zionists collaborate?
As early as 1933, Hitler's government signed an agreement with the Zionists permitting Jews to emigrate from Germany to Palestine, taking large amounts of capital with them.

If six million people had been incinerated by the Nazis, what happened to the ashes?
That remains to be "explained." Six million bodies would have produced many tons of ashes, yet there is no evidence of any large ash depositories.

The reason why they apparently made it up is connected to the ZOG thing, which is so stupid and pathetic. Oh, and they say that Ann Frank wasn't gassed, lol.

I'm quite open minded to all of this, but in certain instances it does smell like a crock of shoite.

:nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

For the love that is all holy and true, someone just signed up as Hitler. Ladies and gentlemen?

He's doing this for attention, just ignore him.

What exactly am i doing for attention? I really cannot see how this type of "controversy" is any different to Dino advocating sex with children as young as toddlers? So please, explain to me how being open-minded enough to re-think History is bad? Did i say any of the above was fact? No. Did i say i believed in it? No. Did i say that it was food for thought? Yes. Did i say i'd accept any evidence to the contrary of this argument? Yes.

Now, can people please read my actual posts before flicking their clitoris over things that i haven't said.

Thankyou.

That's completely different, because not all Muslims praise Osama bin Laden/terrorists, but all Neo-Nazis praise Hitler/Nazis.

Bah, I'm sorry, Jacob. I was just tired and cranky and I hadn't had my bottle yet.

I apologise.

'That's completely different, because not all Muslims praise Osama bin Laden/terrorists, but all Neo-Nazis praise Hitler/Nazis.'

Okay, firstly you have to ask yourself "Do i know all Neo-Nazis?" well, do you?

They're ****ing Nazi's! And for a homasexual, Jacob, you seem to be pretty luke warm towoards them even though they want your kind dead on a stick!

You're quoting from someone who has twisted and misrepresented factual evidence, or simply fabricated it, to support his preconcieved idea of what went on.

The ironic thing is, originally the nazis would've been proud of this holocaust, almost claiming it as a work of art and sheer nazi genius, but now it's like a shameful thing and the nazis are trying to cover it up to make themselves look like nicer people, because they realise how fucking screwed up it is to kill that many people. Yet secretly they probably get off to it.

Ugh, I just don't know where I stand on it. Too many ignorant morons like PA who blame everything on whoever they dislike or whatever scapegoat suits them just fine. For PA it's liberals, for the nazis it's basically the historic community and America, and England, and the jews... fuck I've had about enough of it. I'm sick of these cowards and liars, history doesn't need any of this shit, and all they're doing is just dragging up age old arguments, disagreements, and crap. I don't want to be hearing the 20th century arguments of people I didn't know, who's beliefs and culture I didn't share, reverberating off of my 21st century walls as an means to an end that doesn't have anything to do with me.

'And for a homasexual, Jacob, you seem to be pretty luke warm towoards them even though they want your kind dead on a stick!'

For the majority of Neo's that's true, but then again, are they really Neo's or just school f*ck-ups wanting to vent at something. Usually Neo's are repulsed by Homosexual's and want them seperated from the word "normal". All of the Neo's i know want this, but that doesn't mean they want me "dead on a stick". In fact the two guys i know have defended me from tossers wanting to kick the sh*t out of me before, so i hold them in high regard.

'You're quoting from someone who has twisted and misrepresented factual evidence, or simply fabricated it, to support his preconcieved idea of what went on.'

'Ugh, I just don't know where I stand on it.'

Well surely if the person has done what you said he has done, you should be all for the Holo happening.

The holocaust happened, but just because I accept that fact doesn't mean that I think it involved roughly 6 million people, or feel glad that it went on. I'm disgusted that it happened at all, and I'm disgusted that neo nazis are so screwy that they don't even know what they support anymore. They're just trying to curry favour so they can "take over the world". It's nuts. All this propaganda and for what? Nobody is ever going to believe them, and nobody is ever going to let them come into power, so it's a complete waste of time.

You can say that it didn't happen as much as you want, the fact is that it isn't ever going to get you anywhere. You'll just quickly find that many people doing like you anymore.

So Jacob, what are you trying to say? That the overwhelming amount of photography, eyewitness accounts, testimony, and convictions of SS people for crimes against Jews, minorities, gays, and the mentally handicapped we all faked for the past 60 odd years? For what ****ing purpose? And arguing for Nazis is pretty racist, homophobic, and self-defeating. Every single holocaust denier I've ever seen has been an ignorant, flaming asshole.

You know what? I've been fighting off the urge to say this for a while now but I'm suprised that Jacob hasn't been banned for being a nazi, because that's clearly what he is.