*How long ago did this go off topic?* :confused:

What in the hell happened to my post? It starts with an S and is only about 1/3 it's original size. As I said before. Evolution breaks a proven scientific law, The 2nd law of Thermodynamics. Their is no pure evidence of evolution, that is why it is a theory. The THEORY of evolution also breaks the Law of Biogenesis, Life begats life. Their is no known violation of either of these principles. To be scientific the chances of one cell being alive and having the correct chemical makeup to evolve are one and the same as a twister hitting a junkyard and leaving a fully assembled and operational Boeing 747.

No it doesn't. The belief that evolution breaks the second law of thermodynamics is a false view widely held by creationists, often cited in an attempt to discredit evolution. By saying that evolution breaks this law, you are also saying that the law is broken by seeds developing into trees, eggs developing into chicks, etc. Here is a URL that excellently explains the second law of thermodynamics, evolution and probability. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html The above quote demonstrates how little you know about evolution. Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution - genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory. Here's another URL that clearly explains your misconceptions - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html Not quite. The first link I gave covers this. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

And just for fun:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/archie2.jpg

I hate to repeat myself but.... WHEN DID THIS GO O.T?!!??!!?? :mad:

General Drippik: when Pinky said that humans weren't animals.

Oh. I bet that was ages ago. Humans aren't animals! We are mammals, but definitely not animals! :eek:

Browse through the previous pages to read the whole argument.

Yes, females, milk. No need to talk about it.

You should put that in a book. The biggest problem with mainstream religions like Christianity is that they haven't changed their core beliefs over the past two millennia. I'm not saying that modern science can prove how existence came to be, but assuming that an omnipotent being created everything isn't accepted so readily anymore.

[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: LuxoJr ]

Sorry, Pinky.
I didn't mean to be rude.
My apologies.

Although, taking the risk to be misunderstood by you again, I have to say something. I'll simplify things, so that you can understand this time:

Sydney's point is: we have to be very careful on what we say to other people because, even if that's what we sincerely believe, maybe is not what other people believe. Following this rule means tollerance, and ultimately, respect. When we say that someone is wrong, we need to show why, otherwise our words have no meaning.

When I said that I don't get your point, I was talking about your attitude. I really don't know what you want to tell us. Sometimes you say:"That's wrong, THIS is right! Why? Well, I'm new on this stuff, so don't ask." or "Wait, I have something to prove that to you (and to myself)" something that turned out to not prove anything at all.

If you start your comments with words like "I believe that...", "In my oppinion...", or "I think that...", I'm sure you won't attract so many bold replies to your posts, because this way we will know that you are talking about your own ideas, and are respecting ours.

Uhmm, I don't know. I don't fell better writting this reply, and I don't think you will neither. But I had to do that. Please, don't be angry with me, I told you once that you seem to be an interesting person and I'd love to keep talking to you in a respectfull tone about anything you wish.

I apologize Lampion, I got carried away. I do, believe humans are not animals and I do not believe in evolution that's just me.

I wrote to a bible expert.

Dear Quorsh,
Thank you for your kindness to contact bibleinfo.com. We do
appreciated hearing from our friends. You asked since you
believed in Jesus Christ as a Christian, and that you know that
in the Bible are found some evidences, but "what were the
artifacts?" Good question.

We used to talk and study a lot about artifacts in Archeology
class in the University. And we can start right here. There are
an abundance of books on the Old and New Testaments on
archeology supporting the facts of the Bible.

The very existence of the Bible is another undeniable fact that
Jesus came into this world, lived and died for the salvation of
man, John, 3:16.

The empty tomb is a most powerful proof of Jesus, in the fact
that He rose again. This is how the apostles turned the world
upside down, preaching the resurrection, Acts 17:3,6.

A born again Christian is a walking miracle of the power of
Jesus through the Holy Spirit to re-create a new man, 2 Cor. 5:17.

Look at two thousand years of history wherein is recorded the
lives of those who believed in Christ and worshiped Him. 2 Tim. 1:12.

And even in 2001, look all over the world and see millions of
believers in Jesus Christ which is an indisposed fact, Heb. 13:8.

Sacred history records the death of martyrs, millions of them, who
were willing to lay down their lives. Revelation 2;10.

Where do all the hundreds of Christians hymns come from if there
were no live Jesus to sing about? Eph 5:19.

The Ten Commandments are the basis of all law. Where did they
come from if not from God? Matt. 5:17,18.

The fact of Creation is a thorn in the side of teachers of Evolution.
Jesus is the Creator, Col. 1:16. He is also the Re-Creator, John 1:1-3,
12,13.

I hope this may help a little. If you have any more questions, do not
hesitate to send them in to bibleinfo.com.

You may also want to discover the blessing in the Bible Guides offered.
They are free, and allow you to become proficient in speaking about the
truths of the Bible. Just access

God's richest blessings upon you.

Sincerely yours

Ben Wheeler

What?

Using the bible as evidence is useless when we question how valid this religious text really is. This guy can throw around all the biblical quotes he likes, but any historian will tell you that we can't rely on a single source for details about the past.

The Old and New Testaments are compilations of data supposedly written by different people at different times. I wouldn't trust this kind of data any more than five American books written about World War II during the early 50s.

There's a lack of diverse information to support the heavy claims the bible frequently makes. It deserves to be questioned like any other religious or scientific book in existence.

[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: LuxoJr ]

i'll tell you where the commandments came from: they came from whatever zealot wrote that bit of the bible. come on, for f*ck's sake, a guy comes down from a mountain saying he's got these laws from god, and everyone believes him? does that not seem a little suspicious to anyone?

anyway, we decided almost unanimously that humans were animals a long time ago, Drippik, and it doesn't help resolve the argument when you dig up old arguments.

Maybe the man who got the "Commandments" from God was actually a teenager wanting to have a laugh. So he went up into the mountain, carved the 10 commandments into a stone and came back down saying:
"Whoo-hoo, look evry 1...God gave me these. We should go by these rules"
He said this but realised evry 1 was taking it a little 2 seriously so he left. The village folk then made up stories of a brave man that went 2 the mountains and spoke 2 god. The same concept goes with the burning bush principle. It was not a mystical bush it was a bush that got set on fire by the heat wave they were experiencing. And the same little bastard teenager played a joke on the bloke called Moses(I think it was him...if i wasn't. Same difference)And he believed him...so THERE!

my point zigactly, although i think the whole thing is probably a lot simpler, and has merely been embellished in the retelling.

ha ha ha, not funny.
(slaps head for LAmpion) What are you talking about!? You really just don't know, do you? Puhlease, the bible is more question than the Darwin one, can you explain that? Of course not. You just as green behind the ears as some of we are.
God works in mysterious ways. But the bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way to salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. I mean, the bible is true you guys. It's the oldest book on earth, and nothing is like it. So don't say that some teenager did, cuz it would of been in the bible and that teen would of been caught. That sounds so obsurb and made up and that's not exactly what the bible said. If you wanna say the story. Go by the bible and say the story right unless you will give people crazy ideas. No one could make stuff like that what is written in the bible, and no man can rewrite what happen exactly. Like for example. You can't remember what you thought about last week! I would repeat, you can't remember what you are thinking last week and write a story about it. That's impossible for man to do. And the storys were taken place exactly where the bible said. God can do whatever he want and he works in ways that you cannpt explain. You should know that Lampion. You can't just make fun of the bible, when you never even try to read it.

In order to believe in God, you have to believe and have faith and commit to God first. If you don't, how are you expected believe in God? You can't. It's like, making a cake with out baking powder. How are you going to expect it to rise? So you would believe that it's a cake instead of a pancake?

Lampion, if you are Christian, how come you have so much doubt in the bible and you sound against it. I'm truely starting to think you are not one seriously, maybe atheist.

And you too Sydmister, your like "I am Catholic and stuff, and Agnostic? You can't say that you are with God and the devil, there's no way. There is no such place called hellven. You can't be iffy, make up your mind. You either with God, or not. God does not answer your prayers like that. Are you expected to give someone something, when they don't believe in you or kinda do? Here's a scripture James 1:6-8 says But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea blowned and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. But tell me, what made you have so much doubts? Did something happen to you Sydney? And you Lampion? I would love to help :) :) :) :)

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

I wrote to her again about animals:

Dear Quorisha!

Pleasure to hear from ya again!

You asked if humans are animals. Genesis 1:24-28 says they were both
created on the same day. I heard a Christian Doctor giving a Health lecture
who offended his listener by calling man an animal. But he insisted he was
and not only an animal, but "you are an unclean animal". According to
l Corinthians 15:39 animals and man have different kinds of flesh.
Animals do not have the spiritual reasoning powers to know good
and evil. They will not be taken to heaven when Jesus comes for they have
not the ability to repent of sins and accept Him as Saviour. New animals will
be there without the curse of sin which they groan under here today.

Keep studing the Bible. Let us hear from you again if we can help.

Sincerely yours

Ben Wheeler

Hello Pinkhaired,

What you are saying really is of no consequence to the discussion. Obviously your interpretation of God is a lot different from mine. As I said before when my spirituality came into question, I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, I believe it has been changed and distorted to suit the ideals of man. I accept that your beliefs are rather different, and I respect it, even if I do believe they are wrong.

What Corinthians says regarding animals is also irrelevant. There is no significant difference between human flesh and other animal flesh. As I said before, there is no point in bringing faith into a factual argument in an attempt to prove your point. Faith allows us to believe anything, regardless of what logic and common sense tells us.

Hi, Pinky! The only time I mentioned the Bible was in this following paragraph:

I don't think I made fun of the Bible in that paragraph, did I?

Sydney, you are not making any sense and you are soo off subject. Off subject? The subject is about humans being about animals or not and other related disscusions. You are contradicting this whole time. Are you atheist or what. And don't get mad at me on what the bible saids, i did not write the bible. And what I said in Corinthians was not irrelevant, I think it's the truth,whether you like it or not. I don't care if you think I'm wrong. Were you just listening? Your so in denial of everything. You never believe anyone but your self and your like "Oh I'm right and your wrong" type of attitude. Animals and humans are different. WOuld you like it when you made leprechauns with out souls, and people say "Oh no, Sydney did make this with souls blah blah blah and all that?" God said that you can't change the history of the bible. It really has'nt changed. Just the language that's it. In other words sydney...your weird. Besides, you don't need proof for everything, God works in Mysterious ways.

You made fun of the bible that last paragraph? God just told Moses, paul and the other people who wrote some books in the bible what to write. Lampion, I was explaning to Oryon why a teenager could'nt of had written the bible that's all! :D :D :D That would be just silly. :D :D

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

I wasn't off subject, Pinkhaired. The whole point is that there is no point in bringing faith into a factual argument in an attempt to prove your point. Faith allows us to believe anything, regardless of what logic and common sense tells us.

I could say the same thing about you, Pinkhaired.

*sigh* Whatever Syd, your never going to get higher than the position you are in.

Everyone believes or worshops something that made life exist, even the atheist. Who do you choose?

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

Sydney, you are off subject because we were talking about something different, and you changed the subject for some reason and I was saying something related to what was being discussed.

Excuse me? No offense, but I suggest you see an optometrist.

You were using scripture to back up your claims. I said that using scripture to prove your stance was useless. As I said, faith allows you to believe anything, regardless of logic. I don't know how many times I've tried to explain this to you.

I didn't change the topic. I'm on the verge of closing this thread as it's been reduced to pettiness.

I've seen an eye doctor this wednesday and he said my eyes were perfect. I don't know about yours, 20/1? So you go to Dr Vinci. Or you must need an hearing aid instead because you sound crazy man!

Because you put out some subject out of nowhere and i don't know where you got it from. That was soo long ago, we were talking about something else. My god you don't listen! No matter how much I tell you, you still don't listen! You contradict and you have so much pride! You respect my beliefs, yeah right. We were also talking about why a it could'nt of had been a teenager who wrote the bible and I got 2 letters that I wrote to a bible expert to share. I did not prove any point. Those scriptures were shared from the letter I wrote to him. I don't think you read them. stroll alittle up and you will see the letters.

Go ahead and close this topic, there is no use in trying to talk to you. You are being just as bad because you said that I think i'm right all the time, you do too! I told you what I believe, what I believe! I did not tell you that you were going to go to hell or something. And I aks you kindly, what made you change from a christian, to an agnostic? Your stalling my questions and say something else.

I give up, you win. Whatever. .

Phew, I had to get that out. Sorry if I sounded rude But I am human too and I will get angry if you push me too far, just like you will get angry if someone push you too far. I aint got beef with you and i don't deserve to be talked in any kind of way. I know, it's your Forum, but still, you have to give me respect in order to let me give you respect. It's jsut your attitude that threw me off. If you don't believe me, I can live with that, but don't go beefing and being evil to me. You need to take critizism sometimes, don't take it personal and don't be so insecure with yourself. I'm trying to help a brotha out can I do that? Not trying to be mean.

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

I'm sorry Pink, I didn't mean to get you angry. It's not about winning or losing. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? This whole argument started when you brought your faith into the discussion. What are you trying to acheive by posting bible quotes? As I said, religion has no place in an argument unless you have facts to back up your claims. Your arguments are incoherent so I have a hard time following you. See what I mean? I can't make a great deal of sense out of phrases like that. Your letter to one of those bible experts mentioned the animal/human debate and you accused me of changing the topic for responding to it? If you are going to accuse me of acting a certain way, then give examples because all you seem to be doing is spewing random lines of nonsensical gibberish. You say I am in denial, I'm crazy, I'm weird, I have too much pride, I contradict myself, I'm insecure. Can you present evidence from my posts to support these claims?

I'll say it once more, and hopefully you will understand this time. You should not bring faith into a discussion on subjects such as these. Faith does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So declaring others as wrong because they do not fit your faith is a foolish thing to do in an argument; you simply shouldn't do it. We've established that you don't believe that homo sapiens are in the animalia kingdom because of your belief in the literal interpretation of the bible. You use evidence from the bible to support yourself. Real world evidence is contrary to your belief. Using evidence from the bible accomplishes nothing.

Also, I don't appreciate being told that my spiritual beliefs (which I'm quite happy to keep to myself) are insubstantial. You said my spiritual beliefs are inadequate, because they don't conform to your idea that fundamentalist Christianity is the only acceptable form of spirituality.

I'm not saying that your faith is wrong, you should just keep it to yourself in instances like these.

I'm not attacking you and I don't hate you. I think you have a lot of character and I hope that we can put these heated moments behind us.

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: Sydney ]

Okay I won't use the bible to back me up anymore for this situation. I did'nt accuse you of changing the subject, I'm just telling you what I'm reading from your comments. And my letters were on subject, I wrote them and they replied late and I needed to share them.

Some of your post you seen to contradict and yeah I will show you, and your like insidous comments are like just as incoherent as mines. What have you been smoking? Your confusing me of what you think and It's weird. Your talking out of your behind sometimes! So does daniel, which he's not here but he really does'nt know what he's talking about anyways. There's nothing evident on evolution is there? To me it sounds made up. Where did the stuff to make the big bang theory happen? I ask question, I was not raised no dummy and going to accept just anything.


And when did I say that you were wrong? I did'nt say that anyone was wrong.

Well as your faith, I may think they may be insubstantial because I don't think Agnostic and christianitty or catholic and agnostic go together. I never heard such faith. I told my mom that, and she said it was absurd.
How do they go? I don't get it. Can u please explain to me?

I use to be buddist and hindu and atheist nothing really happened. Nothing happened so I started Christianity and God has blessed be before my eyes. So I was searching for the truth, I wanted to. So i started to believe that there was one God and he had a son Jesus christ.

it's your choice to keep your faith to yourself. I apologize too. I find it hard to conprehend the fact that your belief's are everywhere and I just don't see a connection to them. I don't wanna be a Yes Man and I am not going to lie to you and say yes I understand you because I really don't know where you are coming from. Yes I know what your talking about sometimes but not all the time. I'm trying to say it as kindly as possible. If I think they are insubstantial, I am sorry. i did'nt mean to hurt you ro anyone else.

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

hu?

hu?