Well, god forbids homosexuality and for a person to purposely defy him in that way must remove god from the home. The family itself is an affront to God.

(Will you stick around this place and become the next PA? PLEASE?!)

Well... what if that person doesn't care about god? What if we took religion out of it all together?

Havoc

God loves you whether you believe it or not. And this life is only the first quarter of a very long game. To defy him for the sake of lust will look foolish in the long run.

Well damn did you choose the wrong person to debate religion with...

God must love me a lot because I've done some damn sinful things in my life and he hasn't struck me down yet. Same goes for homosexuals. If he hates them so much, why hasn't he struck them down?

Anyway I will defy anyone for the sake of lust so there.

Havoc

You're really in for it now, Bitter Buffalo. Sorry to say it, but you really should've tried to keep your religious beliefs out of this topic, as religion has nothing to do with one's ability to raise a child. Homosexual or not.

For example, I've known many parents who were very religious, God-fearing individuals, who beat their children and were horrible parents. Could you honestly say that you'd prefer a child to live with an abusive religious person rather than a homosexual who would love and protect that child from harm?

Havoc, God doesn't hate you. He loves you. He just hates the sin. He doesn't strike people dead for making mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. He gives you an entire lifetime to learn from them and repent.

Snuzi, Not all "christians truly understand the teachings of God. Christians have the ability to be bad people just like anyone. But the difference is they know they have a savior who will welcome them back into his arms when they realize their mistakes. I just think that homosexuality is such a blatant disregard for god's teachings that the child will never truly understand their maker and I fear for their immortal souls.

Gah... you're even worse then PA...

*Speakers descend from the ceiling and shout: FINNISH HIM!*

I guess that entire 'savior when they realize their mistakes' is the sole reason all those priests are raping children? I mean, they will be forgiven anyway so why not yes? Why can't the rest live their life this way? I can sin and sin and sin and sin and just before I die I will realize my mistake and get my spot into heaven. Ofcourse, that's what I COULD do, I won't obviously because all cool people are in hell.
Even a homosexual could teach the word of god, but I fear for their mortal souls if they get an invisible father figure stamped into their head from day 1. In that perspective, homosexuals would be BETTER parents then heterosexuals. Because with heterosexuals you have the risk of them being like YOU!

Havoc

There should have been a rule set out clear from the beginning of this topic: don't compare the worst example of hetero-parents to the best of homo-'parents'. It really wins no arguments, and is patronising to both sides of the... debate.

(I'd already used the word argument in the sentence)

I believe the parts about homosexuality being a sin are in the same category as wearing clothes made of more than one fabric. Which is a part of law which was negated. My guess is that you're wearing clothes made from more than one fabric, so following your 'laws' I'm technically allowed to stone you to death. God said it was okay. Don't know about the Police though, they might be a bit displeased, although I'm sure they'll see my reasons are just.

Jesus never said anything against homosexuals, so stop picking and choosing which parts of the Bible you listen to.

As for the discussion at hand, I don't doubt that homosexual parents would raise a child well - but I'd be concerned about how that would pan out on the school ground. I know I wouldn't want to admit I've got two fathers or mothers.

Alcar...

That is the largest crock of bullshit I've ever heard. Basically what you're saying is, that if someone tortures and murders dozens of innocent people, those horrible acts can all be forgotten and forgiven if they admit their mistakes to God? You, my friend, need to start thinking with your head, rather than with an archaic book of fairy tales. If things were that simple, then every person on Earth could go around committing the vilest of acts, simply because they'd know that they'd be forgiven for them. That would just make life one big joke, since we'd all be ensured eternal life, no matter what unspeakable acts we've committed.

Havok and Snuzi, you have misunderstood the nature of salvation. Commiting vile acts up until the moment of your death with the knowledge that you can always say your sorry is not how it works. Apologizing is not true repentance. True repentance comes when a person realizes that they have truly done wrong and is truly sorry for it. This will bring a substantial change in their life which will not allow them to do these things. They will still sin, of course. Everyone does that. But they will have a deeper knowledge of their own rights and wrongs which will stay their hands for the most part.

Alcar, you assume that because I am a person of faith that I am also a fool. That I have chosen to pick and choose what I want to believe. This isn't true. I have done much study into the subject of my religion. My father is a minister and we discuss things on a daily basis. My family does not believe in the rule of "thou shalt ask not". I am given free reign to opinions and questions.
The area that you are talking about, where it says you shall be killed for planting different crops, touching the skin of a dead pig, wearing clothing made from more than one fabric is not attributed to being the words of God. It does not say that God said these things. These were ancient Jewish laws that have been traced to certain areas of the culture and also cleanliness issues. However, there are multiple instances where God shows his disapproval of homosexuality. What is great is that God has given us an out. We have his son and his love which will bring us to glory. I am not a homophobe. I do not detest gay people or anyone else. Neither does God. Everyone sins.


And thank you Mutual Friend for pointing out the fallicy of that argument.

Okay... what? You do not detest gay people... and neither does god? Then... what the f*ck is the problem?
Listen mate, you go try to dig up an original Hebrew bible, first print unaltered trough history. I can promise you that you will not find any instance where jezus or god make any reference to anything remotely to do with homosexuals. Nothing that has to do with killing them in any case.

Anyhoo, I have a question which no-one on this forum has given me a solid answer too and maybe you can answer it for me. WHY... why do you take your rules and place your faith in something that you can not see, smell or touch. There is absolutely NO evidence for god whatsoever so why are you so sure he exists? Faith yea sure, but you need to have at least a point of reference other then a dusty old book don't you? O.o

Havoc

Ahh, but that is where faith is put to the test. Yes, how can you believe in something whose only reference is a dusty old book? That's faith right there. You can't have faith in something you have concrete evidence of. It's all a matter of believing, not knowing. If the person is truly a subject of God then their faith will not dissolve. And don't give me crap about how you can maintain faith with some of the horrible things a person must endure; you either keep your faith or you don't. There aren't any grey zones and there shouldn't be.

EDIT: This post follows on from Havoc's. Used got in before me.

Which is precisely why you don't get religion. Religious people DON'T need another point of reference. Their faith is enough. Your sense of the rational doesn't count here.

Oh, and of course you won't find Jesus criticising homosexuals in an original, Hebrew Old Testament. What with it being compiled and finalised several centuries before his birth. I mean, prophets can predict wonders but that would be a bit much.

On the other hand, you can find God criticising homosexuals on the same level as eating seafood or lighting a fire on Saturdays. So I'd say that both Havoc and BB are off their rockers on this issue. BB - I wonder how you can pick and choose what parts in Leviticus are from God and which aren't, seeing as they're all written in the same block of text. Either the bible is divinely inspired or it's not.

You see that is my exact reason for not liking any kind of religion. If there was at least a reason people pick up the believe then maybe I could get near understanding it (like having seen a miracle or whatever). But apparently people just go; 'Invisible mighty father figure and dusty old book? Sounds great I'll do just that!' and suddenly are religious and convinced everything in that book is true. Call me ignorant but I find that a fascinating part of human behavior and I'm not sure if I should call it out of the ordinary or just downright stupid. I have spent 9 years on a christian school and I still didn't get it. So that either means I am to dumb to comprehend it, or to smart to be dragged into it and I'm guessing it's the latter.

Really I hope there will come a day where I can have insight in religion because I am genuinely curious as to what drives you people. Especially in discussions like these when I'm making paragraphs full of counterpoints it drives me crazy not to know how the mind of a religious person works. Alas, the day where I will understand the basis of religion will probably never come. So I guess we're all doomed to listen to my anti religious ranting :).

On another note, why does a genetic abnormality like homosexuality even exist if god is the one who created us? And yes I know it's a choice this and it's a choice that. It's not a choice, we've been over this and we said it's genetic so it's genetic okay? Why did god create gay peoples just to say 'BAD BAD BAD HOMOSEXUAL!' in the bible two days later?

Okay I'm done ranting again :)

Havoc

But I like listening to your anti religious ranting :).

You've made some very valid points. The only problem is that Bitter Buffalo has some stupid quote from the bible, or pre-thought out, vague "answer" that will counter what you've said every time. These overly-religious folks must've been trained for these debates, I swear. No matter what what you say to them, they can always turn it around and completely avoid the topic at hand. And what's worse is they never have an original thought in their mind. Their replies come from a thousand-year-old book, or from someone who told them to think that way. I just can't take these people seriously when it comes to these sorts of topics. They have no right to even debate about it, as all of their answers are the same: "God doesn't allow that, and so it is a sin".

Excellent point. Why would God create homosexuals, or any type of "bad" person for that matter? If he is all-knowing, wouldn't he know when a certain person would turn into a homosexual, their, rapist, or murderer? And if so, why would he allow them to live in the first place? So that they can be one of the people he makes and example of and sends to hell? That would render their existance meaningless, don't ya think?

And furthermore, if his religion was the only one anyone should follow, why create Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists? Would that not render their eistance meaningless also, if they did not follow his way and were destined to be sent to hell?

I know I'm going off topic here, but I just thought I'd bring this up, as I'd love to see how Bitter Buffalo responds to 'em :p.

Ask Irenaeus.

I happen to know the answer to that one, although it's not a very smart one...
Apparently everyone has free will, and even though science has proven that homosexuality is genetic and a feeling you don't suppress so easy, the church just threw it out the window and holds a firm stance that it's a choice. The idea being that any true follower would not chose to be gay despite their desires.
The point is that it doesn't stop with just gay people, there's an entire list of stuff you get sent to hell for which doesn't make any damn sense if god created you.

Don't be gay or you'll go to hell! (Genetics, you're born this way.)
Don't have sex or you'll go to hell! (Primary desire in any living thing)
Don't kill republicans or you'll go to hell! (And their all over the place :p)

The point you make about other religions is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that one yet. I guess they lead that back to free will as well, but it is a sin as far as my recollection of the bible goes.
Religion is based soley on fear and fear alone.
"Your god loves you and he will forgive you for everything you do but if you don't believe in his guidance you will be thrown in hell!!! No pressure, no-one is forcing you to do believe in him, but if you don't you'll go to hell!"
Doesn't that sound vaguely similar to... oh lets say: Give me your money or I'm gonna blast your brains out! No pressure though, it's your own choice.

Havoc

I honestly don't think any of us truly have "free will" merely because if we remember the story about Adam and Eve, it began where God told them not to eat the forbidden fruit, but in God's mind, he had to know that they would, right? I mean, he claims he gave Adam and Eve the choice and the "free will" to disobey him, but he knew the outcome so therefore, they wouldn't have had much of choice if their destiny was predetermined. So in regard to homosexuality, how could it be one's choice to choose their sexual orientation when God knew exactly how they would be? God knows all, isn't that so?

What the hell... If a man sees another man, and thinks: "Ooh, he looks pretty hot!" And then a couple of days later, he decides he wants to be gay, he's still making that choice by think about it himself, you may believe that God knows all, but you've still got to think, it's that person making that decision.

Okay, I never said that we don't have a choice, but what I was saying that God already does know our decisions in the long run and that they are basically predetermined. Everybody makes choices in life of course, but I didn't make the choice to be straight. I just am. I never had to fight over my sexuality. I can assume that most homosexuals already know they're gay in the first place, just a shamed or scared to admit it. I don't think everyone wants to choose being a certain sexual orientation. It's all based on feeling and instinct...so I believe that God does indeed know what we are right from the beginning.

Except it doesn't go that way. Read the goddamn topic before you makes stupid statements...

Havoc

Hey, I read the topic in the first place. It wasn't me who started the whole homosexual conversation and what it entails. You don't know everything about how a person feels. Everyone is different. You don't have to get all snippy there buddy. Just expressing an opinion and you get defensive. Poor thing.

^Sirap- he was replying to Jordan_Boi

He doesn't decide to be gay. He might decide to admit it to himself, come out or start a relationship, but if he wasn't gay in the first place then he probably wouldn't have thought that at all anyway. Honestly, given the society we live in, who would want to be gay? To live a life of probable discrimination, outcasting and as the target of spontaneous outburst of hate and violence? Yeah, I see the attraction, I might just choose it.

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at Jordan. You posted just before I did, sorry :).

Well, Havoc should make that apparent since Havoc looked like he/she was replying to me.

I completely agree with you. Being gay has always been a struggle and to so-called choose that lifestyle is risky. People cannot help the way they feel and it is very sad for those who do suffer based on their sexuality. The only people I believe who make a decision with their sexuality are those who switch from gay to straight to bisexual to straight to gay again. That is just ridiculous. A person knows whether they are gay or straight just by having the thoughts and feelings.

No problem, Havoc lol

I believe Nate already pointed out that Jesus could not have said anything in an original Hebrew text so I will skip that part. I have never once even mentioned killing gay people or that it would be right to do so. I merely said that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of god as are many other things. You somehow got the impression that I and God hate gay people. This is wrong. Again. Everyone sins. Myself included.

Nate- I have already answered this but I will do it again. The areas of Leviticus that you are speaking of are not attributed to God directly. They do not say that "and God proclaimed that such and such". Although that is implied so I understand how anyone could be taken aback by that. I know I was. What I have discovered is that there is a significant difference between cultural laws and religious laws. Those laws were cultural, which means in this case that the originated from Jews living in a certain region. This is much like women not being able to pray with men or having to wear veils in the Muslim faith. These are not religious laws but rather cultural. However, there are instances in the Bible (other than Leviticus) where God speaks of homosexuality. One of these is where Sodom and Gamora are destroyed.

Snuzi- I have actually given no quotes or even vague answers. I have done my best to answer directly and without taking offense to the tone that people have used with me. Believing that homosexuality is a sin is not the same as being a bigot. It is part of my religion. I have no quarrel with gay people and think they should have every right that a straight person has. We live in a country that was founded on seperation of church and state. Although it didn't really turn out that way. I have acted in a respectfull manner and I would appreciate if you would do the same. Calling me stupid is not a valid arguing point.

Maybe people find your views themselves to be offensive and that makes them feel like hurting your sweet little "god is love" face.

Just a theory.

I know you haven't, but believe me, I've had religious arguements before. When you run out of your "own" opinions, you'll start quoting the bible, or using very vague responses to make your point. All of you religious folks seem to work that way :p.

If you have no quarrel with homosexuals, why say that they are sinning by just being themselves? Why say that they aren't acting in a "godly" manner? You're putting them down and turning their lifestyle into some unspeakable evil. And what's more, you're acting nonchalantly about it. So much for you not having a quarrel with 'em ;).

And I haven't called you stupid. Not once. I have criticized the manner in which you respond to these posts, yes, but I have not directly insulted you. Don't misquote me.

You think that saying I don't have the capacity for original thought isn't tantamount to stupidity? We must have different ideas of what the word means. And anyway, you are making assumptions about me based on people you have met who belong to the same religion as I do. I would have to say that this is not an original thought. You should judge me based on what I do. Not by what you think I might do.

Homosexuality is considered a sin. But so is smoking as we are supposed to treat our bodies like a temple and not put harmfull substances in it. Do you think I demonize smokers? No. They are just people who are doing something that isn't good for them. I am not making the argument that being a homosexual defines a person completely. There are many more aspects to a person than their sexual preferance. You seem to think that everything is black and white. Or you think that I think everything is black and white. I'm nonchalant about it because it is merely one sin amongst a cornucopia of sins. I don't apply the stigma to it that you think I do.

And I didn't start this thread. Someone else did and I just responded to it. Are people who don't share your opinions not allowed to post here?

This thread isn't about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, or about Christianity and Bitter, it's about letting homosexuals taking up the slack and raising the children no one else wants to.

There are some that say that, yes. But I believe the *modern* Christian viewpoint is that people may be born gay as a test and they must prove themselves by remaining celibate.

How the hell did I end up as the defender of the Christian faith?!

Time to go back to your books, mister:

Lev 11:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
Lev 11:2 Speak ye to the sons of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat of all beasts that are upon the earth.
Lev 11:3 Every beast parting the hoof and making divisions of two claws, and chewing the cud among beasts, these ye shall eat.
Lev 11:4 But of these ye shall not eat, of those that chew the cud, and of those that part the hoofs, and divide claws; the camel, because it chews the cud, but does not divide the hoof, this is unclean to you.
Lev 11:5 And the rabbit, because it chews the cud, but does not divide the hoof, this is unclean to you.
Lev 11:6 And the hare, because it does not chew the cud, and does not divide the hoof, this is unclean to you.
Lev 11:7 And the swine, because this animal divides the hoof, and makes claws of the hoof, and it does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.
Lev 11:8 Ye shall not eat of their flesh, and ye shall not touch their carcases; these are unclean to you.
Lev 11:9 And these are what ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all things that have fins and scales in the waters, and in the seas, and in the brooks, these ye shall eat.
Lev 11:10 And all things which have not fins or scales in the water, or in the seas, and in the brooks, of all which the waters produce, and of every soul living in the water, are an abomination; and they shall be abominations to you.

Yes, but it does not speak of it being a killing offense. That is what I was talking about.

Again, I didn't say that you don't have any original thoughts in your head. You just tend to think with your bible rather than with your noggin is all.

I am judging you based on what you're doing. You're acting like all the other Christians that came before you. Every example of why homosexuality is supposedly a sin comes from the bible, and not from your own personal standpoint. You all tend to do that, as you have no personal opinions that could possibly support some of the things that are said in the bible.

So, would drinking be considered a sin as well? Because, if we got by your logic, it also does harm to our bodies. More damage than smoking, in fact. If drinking is indeed a sin, then why does the bible suggest that we do so? Wouldn't that contradict what the bible said, and suggest that perhaps other things could also be contradicted? Like, homosexuality, perhaps?

And are you implying that homosexuals are also "doing something that is abd for them"? because if you are, that's rubbish. Their sexual preference is not their choice. It's instinct, and evidence suggests that people are just born that way.

Last thing. Let's say someone who belonged to your religion was faithful, and was a genuinely good person, but turned out to be gay. Would they immediately be destined to go to hell when they died, simply because of such an insignificant detail as sexual preference?

I know it is, but Bitter turned it into a thread about whether homosexuality is right or wrong in the first place, which still relates to the topic :p.

This one's my favorite. Baically, we're all abominations if we don't go along with the Christian faith. Priceless.

Yes, drinking is bad for you as well. Which technically makes it a sin. You aren't going to name off everything that's bad for you and ask if it's a sin, are you? I mean, I only gave one example because I didn't think I would need to clarify that deeply.

And yes, being a homosexual is bad for. If aids isn't proof of that then I don't know what is. But I'm not saying that people aren't born with that predisposition. They merely need to fight it.

Lastly, you completely nmisunderstood that verse.

AIDS is found in all peoples. It was only first discovered spreading through the gay community. And honestly, that is because they weren't sleeping with anyone else.

Aids isn't directly linked to homosexuality... It's a sexual decease and in the 60 using a condom was uncool and gay parties were underground back then so add the two together and you have an STD festival.

Havoc

I know that other people get it as well but most gay people have aids so I'd say that it is pretty dangerous.

Take that back before you are flamed worse than Gollum in Mount Doom.

Oops to late...

Bitter, you twat... that's the most ignorant statement I've ever heard around here. Not to mention that it's major bullshit. Smacktard...

Havoc