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Wings of Fire 12-16-2011 08:26 AM

'Moral' choices in video games always make me laugh. It boils down to 'Be a dick/Don't be a dick'. Skyrim did it better than most, as both sides are presented fairly, but still.

I've only seen very very few games do morally ambiguous choices right.

Bullet Magnet 12-16-2011 09:30 AM

"Fairly" is an interesting term. Surely, both sides have been presented to me as equally dickish. Neither have sold themselves to me at all.

But only one tried to chop my head off while I couldn't fight back. For the crime of, so far as I can tell, being in the same prison cart as Ulfric Stormcloak. Which, as I reminded them while my head was lowered onto the block, was where they put me.

So there's a deal breaker right there.

Wings of Fire 12-16-2011 09:44 AM

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Surely, both sides have been presented to me as equally dickish.

That was kind of my point.

I also chose the Stormcloaks for the reason you did.

Bullet Magnet 12-16-2011 10:32 AM

I'm starting to have reservations about their racism.

"Lizard" is rapidly becoming my Berserk Button.

MeechMunchie 12-16-2011 02:46 PM

I liked question 3. Made me realise I usually play a closet psychopath, playing the hero but also stealing all your shit.

But question 4 is a bit weird - I agreed with all of those. Maybe make multiple answers possible, or change the question to 'Which one of these statements do you most agree with?'

Also, I rambled a hell of a lot in 5-7. I may have written most of your report for you. :p

EDIT: In fact, I may as well get my time's worth out of this by posting it here.

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5. In Bethesda Softworks games like Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls Oblivion / Skyrim (New Vegas was developed by Obsidian Entertainment), the player is given many different ways to complete a quest. Do you feel that this gameplay mechanic works well in immersing the player within the game world?

Yes. Artificial limitations on the player, incidental or enforced, make the player more aware of the artificial nature of the game. By giving the player more paths to act naturally and play in a way that seems right to them, the contrast of intent and possible actions fades, and the distinction between the player and their representative in-game begins to blur.

That said, in games with completely freeform structure such as the Elder Scrolls (as opposed to more story-driven fare such as Dragon Age or the Witcher series), the sheer amount of options can push the player to act more extremely than they would in real life, just to see how far the boundaries of the game will bend. In this sense the game is less immersive in presenting an alternative reality, moving more into traditional 'fantasy-fulfillment' territory.

6. In games such as Spore or Black & White, the player is somewhat led along a particular alignment (good, neutral and bad). Do you feel that this is too cheesy and too limited in scope? Or do you feel that alignment alteration is a good starting point for major differences in the specialisation of game characters?

As I mentioned above, many players will always act extremely just because it brings them more entertainment from the game. These sorts of players tend to start open-ended games feeling slightly lost, wondering where the impressive content and experiences can be found.

These sorts of players (Call them 'Surfers', skimming across the calm to find the next exciting wave) will probably enjoy a morality system to give them a sense of direction and provide a lasting sense of meaning to their otherwise frequently ridiculous actions. They will also be the sort of players who will respond positively to unlocking new powers or changing appearance appropriate to their choices.

However, many also prefer to play as themselves, acting more naturally as it makes them feel more immersed in the game (Call them 'Swimmers', taking every stroke seriously and exploring the depths of the game). The issue for these people, and a flaw criticised by most gamers, is that neutrality is rarely rewarded by artificial morality systems.

Perhaps this is because neutrality could be considered its own reward. Whereas a 'Pure Good' attitude is often very difficult to keep to, and a 'Pure Evil' personality tends to make the game harder for the player, making NPCs too fearful to cooperate and usually attracting 'Good' factions in the world to try and destroy them, Neutrality makes the game somewhat easier as it gives players freedom to act how they want.

The 'Swimmer' view would probably be that whether the game is harder or easier is irrelevant, as the trouble and effort the player puts into following up their choices is as key to the immersive experience as the choices themselves.

What this ultimately means is that the people who care about limitations on who can access content (Surfers) are the people who are less likely to encounter those limitations. Conversely, the people who encounter the limitations (Swimmers) are those who are less concerned with individual scraps of content, more with the play experience as a whole.

This itself means that the common criticism that 'natural' players 'miss out' as they do not see the alignment-specific content may be more disputable than once thought. That said, most people find a balance between both play styles, so players being annoyed by the issue is still understandable.

7. Finally, in modern videogames, do you feel that the player should have more/less choice in how their actions affect the world? Should players be restricted to a particular alignment? Or should character alignment be easily changed, so that users can try out being good or bad whenever they like?

Removing such limitations as narrow dialogue trees, invisible walls and invincible NPCs will always make the artificiality of the game world less obvious, resulting in a more immersive experience for all players. I believe this is a fairly unanimous, uncontroversial view.

However, the nature of choice, the number of choices, the amount of options for each choice, how these choices affect the world, its treatment of the player, and how long these consequences remain relevant for... none of these have one single rule that can be applied to all games.

Scale: In sandbox like Spore, you can play an interstellar empire, so wiping out planets on a whim is considered an appropriate level of player impact. In a more focused, character-based game like Skyrim, blasting the entire nation of the face of Nirn would have somewhat more serious implications!

Non-Player-Induced Changes: In a freeform RPG like Oblivion, giving the player a large number of options is possible because Cyrodil itself remains constant. In Dragon Age II, the world is heaving and reshaping itself whether the player wants it to or not. Options must be tied to the main story, or keeping track of all the different influences and their effects would be impossible for both the writers and the player. When the story takes such a central role, keeping the player's choices clear and limited is arguably the only way to keep them satisfied with the apparent impact of each.

Prevalence of Story:
If we're talking about the merits and drawbacks of different levels of choice, then it's worth considering games with little, if any, player choice at all. For a linear, heavily story-based game, player freedom would kill momentum. Allowing a player to wander a game when there's only one place to go to continue the story is not usually considered a sensible option. Besides, careful guidance of the player, through events of the game world, can give the player an illusion of choice, which when done effectively is as satisfying and exciting as a genuine choice.

Portal 2 is little more that one long corridor, but we don't hold that against it because everything we're asked to do seems like a reasonable response to the extreme situations we are presented with. No-one asks 'Do you want to escape from Wheatley?', because there's only one sensible answer. Wheatley's connection to the Aperture mainframe is itself a forced action, and at the time at least, probably a bad one, but we allow it anyway because we care about experiencing the story than we do about writing it. So choice is not inherently a good thing, it really does depend on the game.

The question of how fixed alignment should be is another divisive question. Some people will want to play to fit their own style and appreciate the challenge, while others, as you say, will want to try all the game has to offer in one playthrough. I could attribute this respectively to Swimmers and Surfers again, but the problem here is that the changeability of a person's personality is itself part of their personality!

Some people in real life are more fixed in their views and morals, while some act more objectively and believe that all personal rules must have exceptions, changing their mind frequently as new information comes to light. These are sometimes explored in games as 'Lawful' and 'Chaotic' elements, but are rarely fully realised or implemented.

So the reason why I couldn't just put this down to Surfing and Swimming is that a 'Lawful Swimmer' would want a fixed alignment that fit their general attitude to life, a 'Chaotic Swimmer' would want the opposite, as a flexible alignment would suit their real life personality! Surfers would be similarly divided, since either approach would bring its own assets to gameplay, each more suiting to a certain attitude to games, be it a sense of purpose in a fixed alignment for 'Lawful Surfers' or a sense of freedom in a flexible one for 'Chaotic Surfers'.

None of these questions have easy answers. The newly-christened 'Surfing vs. Swimming' debate, whether video games are primarily tools for entertainment or escapism, is a debate that has raged since gaming's inception and will likely go on for decades. The more specific 'Chaotic vs. Lawful' alignment system debate is a relatively recent one, but will probably end up being just as interesting.

Final thought: Someone once commented thus: "There's enough realism in real life." Be you Surfer or Swimmer, you enjoy games because they allow you to do things that would be impossible in real life, or at least impossible to get away with. A realistic treatment of the player's choices is often less fun than a limited one.

AlexFili 12-17-2011 12:32 AM

Thanks for your opinions and responses. The survey is now closed. :)

Crashpunk 12-17-2011 06:28 AM

Anyone else hate the arrow in the knee meme?

Dynamithix 12-17-2011 06:29 AM

They got old so quick. I think I should change my signature already.

mr.odd 12-17-2011 05:29 PM

They we're never funny to begin with. I never got why people found it funny.

Phylum 12-17-2011 05:39 PM

I used to find it funny. Then I took an arrow in the knee.

Ugh.

mr.odd 12-17-2011 06:08 PM

Don't make me Fus Ro Da you off the mountain.

Dynamithix 12-18-2011 01:42 AM

I found Sheogorath's quotes pretty funny in the game. Not because of what he said, but how he said it.

"Emperor... PELAAAGIUS! THE THIRD!"

Nate 12-18-2011 01:54 AM

Mr. Bungle, if you're reading this... are you aware that you reported Phylum's post instead of posrepping it? :D



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I used to find it funny. Then I took an arrow in the knee.

Ugh.


Phylum 12-18-2011 02:24 AM

Don't be so sure he meant to +rep it. It's a pretty shit joke.

Scraby 12-18-2011 02:50 AM

oh the arrow knee joke .....

http://memegenerator.net/cache/insta...6/12386497.jpg

Nate 12-18-2011 03:54 AM

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Don't be so sure he meant to +rep it. It's a pretty shit joke.

His comment was 'haha'. Unless he really wanted me and T-Nex to know what he thought, it seems unlikely that reporting was what he had in mind.

BoneyHead95 12-18-2011 04:10 AM

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Anyone else hate the arrow in the knee meme?

YES! I HATE IT! I don't find it funny! And when I found the guy who says it in the game. I going to kill him. :D

Dynamithix 12-18-2011 04:32 AM

So you found a normal guard in the game? Good job.

Crashpunk 12-18-2011 08:54 AM

Doesn't every guard say it?

mr.odd 12-18-2011 01:34 PM

I found a T-shirt of it.

BoneyHead95 12-21-2011 12:54 AM

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Doesn't every guard say it?

Then every guard shall be killed. :D (Can't wait to play it now)

Nepsotic 12-21-2011 02:17 PM

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So you found a normal guard in the game? Good job.

i hate to be a skyrim-nerdy wanker, but its "in the knee" not "to the knee".


also, i'm not going to read the entire thread because its so long (as i'd expect as it is skyrim) but i'm guessing most of it is about the arrow in the knee?

and one final thing i dont know if i should start a new thread for, but has this happened to anyone else? try to get married in the temple of mara in riften and when the bride enters, the corpse of a companion or lydia spawns and falls onto the floor. has this happened to anyone? now i want to know, who at bethesda screwed up so bad that a random dead body spawns miles away from where it was killed. (and should i start a thread for skyrim bugs?)

BoneyHead95 12-21-2011 02:27 PM

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i hate to be a skyrim-nerdy wanker, but its "in the knee" not "to the knee".


also, i'm not going to read the entire thread because its so long (as i'd expect as it is skyrim) but i'm guessing most of it is about the arrow in the knee?

and one final thing i dont know if i should start a new thread for, but has this happened to anyone else? try to get married in the temple of mara in riften and when the bride enters, the corpse of a companion or lydia spawns and falls onto the floor. has this happened to anyone? now i want to know, who at bethesda screwed up so bad that a random dead body spawns miles away from where it was killed. (and should i start a thread for skyrim bugs?)

I going to become like Nate now......

I don't think you should do a thread for skyrim bugs. But how about a thread for bugs in every game. In the thread well be about posts about bugs, glitch that people may find in any game. (And how to get past them) If it is just going to be about skyrim bugs then you can only post here. (Because it's only Skyrim)

Sorry

I don't think anyone had that before know in the game. I ask my friend if he had this before. I hope this info was helpful! ;D

Dynamithix 12-21-2011 02:29 PM

Yeah it's a bit off, I couldn't bother to change it. It's a dumb meme anyway, I'll make a new sigpic later for myself.

Nepsotic 12-21-2011 03:03 PM

oh well. and about that glitch, its apparently a very common glitch, i looked around online and loads of people have come across, and many videos on how to fix it, but none of them have worked :(. skyrim is a big game, and its bound to have a lot of glitches (and i mean alot, seriously), but you can't blame them too much, its massive.

Bullet Magnet 12-21-2011 03:06 PM

The body of Skjor once appeared, rigid, upright and buried to the chest in the gorund, and proceeded to move at walking place in one direction, yet pathfinding. He could be spoken to and he offered quests despite being dead though I could take any while I was on one for Aela. Probably for the best, who knows when I'd be able to find him to complete it afterwards?

Nepsotic 12-21-2011 03:10 PM

thats strange, once i fell inside a mountain. hey what level are you all? i'm 51

Scraby 12-21-2011 03:50 PM

off topic but... i couldnt resist
:

I took an arrow in the knee
:

I took an mace in the face

Nepsotic 12-21-2011 03:54 PM

never heard that one before, but i have heard "i took a sword in the chest" in windhelm, anyway, levels?

BoneyHead95 12-22-2011 02:46 AM

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oh well. and about that glitch, its apparently a very common glitch, i looked around online and loads of people have come across, and many videos on how to fix it, but none of them have worked :(. skyrim is a big game, and its bound to have a lot of glitches (and i mean alot, seriously), but you can't blame them too much, its massive.

I very worry that my game might bug out when I get to play it! But it didn't bug when I played Dead Island! :D


People that say 'I took an arrow to the knee' well be shot!

People that say 'I took an arrow to the knee' and survive the frist shot WILL be shot again!