who said i am trying to convert someone?
i am just making my beliefs clear

@ T-nex: no HE is a HE , as HE reffered to HIMself in quar'aan.

@ Havoc: no it's very rational... (i am lazy so i'll just pick some parts from a wikihow page ^^)
look for life where it has no known cause, no design and no plan. Life is an action, and an action needs a cause. Would you expect life without a cause or plan? Is there much probability?

If the universe were created by chance (without intelligence), then what power does time and chance have? Chance has no creative ability, since it is just a concept of ratios; probability has no power; it is merely a number like: zero or infinitesimally small, or 99.9%. So, if there were no cytoplasmic life in billions (thousands of millions) of years, then what chance is there of success by adding similarly 1000s of millions of years still without a cause, design or plan and so to form reproductive living cells.
Do you feel that lucky? So did mother nature get so lucky that she created life without a plan, without sterile lab conditions and with no previously existing organic materials?

Life comes from life. That is all we know: scientifically it has not been proven beyond a doubt how cells began. No, DNA and RNA couldn't make it very far with no cell in which to operate, no organelles, no nucleus, no food, no biological energy, no organization? Having no place or way for life to begin is as good as saying it could not reasonably happen...

Poof! and "Oh, it was just there." makes no sense at all. So what if DNA took millions of years to develop, then it still needed an enclosed environ (a cell) and organelles (cell parts)... But if there is a God - an all powerful God would have the power to create something out of nothing, not because of any preconceived or preeminent matter, but because the all powerful God can do that by definition!

could static electricity or an electrical flash of lightning like an explosion near a puddle such as a tidal pool cause the initializing of mitochondrial energy creation, "purposeless" living cells that would then automatically begin digestion, and of course reproduction, to somehow achieve "genetic programming of uniqueness" but still be the same in multitudes of meaningful ways, programming of instincts and immune system, healing of injuries, nerves, nerves cooperating, nerves communicating, autonomic life processes (automated) like respiration, hundreds or millions of interrelated reactions and systems,...

Look at how nature breaks down things and think about whether creation of life seems natural! The 2nd. Law of Thermodynamics states that all things are wearing down. Nature is about breaking down rocks to pebbles and to sand, dissolving, oxidizing, mineral deposits, poison, corrosion, erosion, and rot. If that is true, then how could evolution be true? Evolution is still a theory (even after almost 200 years), meaning that is is not proven, and it can't be proven because it contradicts a law. God can override laws as he wishes, after all, He made laws and is not bound by them.


cheap rip off from an article on wikihow, but it sounds very rational to me.

Surely such gender descriptors are rendered useless when describing a being we can't even comprehend?

EDIT: I'm sorry, I can't even begin to argue against that this early in the morning. I can't really find anything inside it that isn't sophistry.

You should investigate the World Mission Society Church of God. They believe in God the Mother together with the better known God the Father and God the Son. I believe the logic goes something along like this... "The bible refers to God as 'He' and 'Father'. In our world, anything that has a father also has a mother. Therefore there must be a mother god as well." This vaguely misses the point that ancient (and modern) Hebrew does not have gender neutral pronouns. There is not even an equivalent of 'it' - inanimate objects are given gender and are referred to as 'he' or 'she'. There is also no gender neutral term equivalent to 'parent'. So what else could they use to refer to God?

Okay, how about this; with all your math and chemistry, where did the universe come from? What existed the moment before the big bang? Scientists discussing such matters are acting on just as much faith as priests and rabbis.

Yes, the probability of life evolving from scratch is freakishly low. On the other hand, there are an estimated 9 billion trillion stars stars in the observable universe, which means that there are probably, if not trillions, of planets with the necessary conditions for life, which gives plenty of room for freakishly low probabilities of events to occur.

You may ask yourself "But what are the chances of such an unlikely series of things to happen to lead to the point where we're having this discussion?" The answer to that, of course, is that the only way that we could have this discussion is if those events had occurred, thus making it retroactively possible.

The big flash, perhaps?

Thankyou for proving my point with your 'perhaps'.

Who's the moron now!

Still you.

Okay, fine, but who's ALSO a moron now!

Only you.

...who's stupid now?

I think the difference between religion and science is that when religion assumes something it is perceived as fact, sometimes even when it's been directly contradicted.

When science makes an assumption it's a theory, a starting point to work from which can change as evidence becomes available.

In short, scientists will gladly change their perspective on things when provided with proper evidence. Religious people will fight you to the death to convince you that the evidence is wrong when you show it to them.

Also, as for things being able to evolve into what we are now. Consider that, like Nate said, there are billions of stars and planets in the universe. In fact, I believe that a few hundred lightyears away they recently found a planet that's almost identical to earth and which, in theory, could sustain the same lifeforms we have here.

Now consider that the universe, with all it's planets, suns, stars is billions of years old and will take billions more years to collapse on itself (which scientists believe will eventually happen). If you would draw out the timeline of the universe, in all those billions of years our entire planet has only been around for about 4 billion years. Life didn't start here until a billion years later. If you consider that the universe is hundreds, if not thousands of billions of years old, we are only a speck on the timeline of the universe. Even if the planet takes another few million years to die and explode, we will never have been more than a glimpse in the timeline of the universe. A coincidence of trillions of factors being just right at just the right time.

When you consider all that you can come to the conclusion that there is no reason we are here. There is no meaning of life. We're just here, by sheer 1 in a trillion billion million chance. Nothing more. And when you think about that, I can understand why people want to have a god. Something that gives them the feeling they are here for a reason. Because if you think too much into being here for no reason at all, it can be pretty damn depressing.

Such is life... Enjoy it while you have it.Iit wont matter anyway. Once you're dead, you're dead. Unless by sheer coincidence, there actually is something after death. hey... It's a small chance, but life happened too, right?

Life is complicated. We don't know much more about life beyond 'it has a physical form and it is self aware'. For all we know we do have a soul that keeps living on when our body dies, guess we'll never know until one of those souls finds a way to communicate with the living world.

Perhaps... Perhaps we're only half alive too. Or maybe true sentience is even more sentient than we are... Shit.. My brain will explode.

Or perhaps we're all actually dead and this is actually the afterlife...



Or, you know, 13.75 ±0.17 billion years old

Except that they aren't, they're using cosmological and subatomic observations to create models in an attempt to explain it, and aren't claiming to have an answer yet. It's much more useful than proclaiming it to be unknowable and teaching that as wisdom.

Every single one of your arguments is known to be invalid. Insofar as it is possible to know anything, we know that that is unadulterated bollocks.

.... *head explodes* ...



I actually enjoy philosophizing about life. But I suspect it's what made me such a nihilist in the first place. I truly believe there's no purpose in life, which is why I also don't much about suicide.

I see it like this: Life is a big gray, pointless haze... Kind of like a game. Once you're done playing that game it actually doesn't matter, cos it's done, and chances are that you wont even play it again after game over/end.

However, if it's a good game, you do wanna keep playing. Even if it's kinda pointless in the end.

Same with life. If there are things that make you happy in life, it's like getting really good ice cream. If the ice cream is really incredibly tasty, you think: "Well... I guess I could go on and eat some more ice cream. This is pleasurable."

But the result is always the same: We die at some point, and after that... either something happens... Or nothing happens at all, in which case our pleasurable and miserable moments wont matter at all anymore.
Whether you were a king, or a homeless drunk, it still wont matter. You're dead, you cant take pleasure/displeasure in your life after death.


x_x I need to stop thinking! Ima take some happy pills now.

The famous scientist Blaise Pascal spent several days wondering whether he should become an atheist or a Christian, and looked at it from a pragmatic standpoint. In the end, he decided thus:

If he became an atheist and atheism was right, he would spend his whole life fighting against the idea of God and die and gain nothing.

If he became a Christian and Christianity was right, he would spend his whole life fighting for God and die and gain everlasting glory in paradise.

That's why, even if God does not exist, isn't it better to live life with the hope of something to come afterward, instead of just trying to convince people that there is really nothing? I'm a Christian, and proud of it.

I wish that I hadn't started this conversation. It's become unbelievably tedious to read.

Incorrect!! Wanna know why?

What of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Voodoo and ALL of the other many relgions?? Many of which have the same message as Christianity.

If you choose Christianity, There is only a TINY slight mini chance that you're going to heaven. It's so small, it's not even worth it.

I'd say, spend your days actually making something of yourself in THIS life, and become smart... become a good person. Do not be willfully ignorant. That's really sad.

I have found that Christians are the most satisfied of people on earth, because we know that personal possessions are not everything. That's why superstars end up committing suicide, because once they have everything they could ever want, there's nothing left.

And anyway, who wants to become One with Nature?

That only works if the choice is between atheism and Christianity. It also only works if you actually have to 'fight against the idea of God'. Given the massive number of religions in this world and the sheer comparitive ease of being an atheist, I'm gonna choose atheism.

You haven't met many Bhuddists, right? Or, you know, anyone pretty much who isn't Christian?



True, but my point was rather that Science isn't capable of answering all questions and that some of the foundations of physics are taken on faith simply because we don't know the answers yet.

Perhaps I should have used the example of String Theory instead; it's ultimately unprovable and unfalsifiable but it fits the facts of the universe as we know it and people are prepared to fight for their belief in it.

people worshiped sun,when the first human stretched,as the language started to evolve,they callled it god,the human saviour the light in the sky,thats the explanation that every god on this planet has a sun behind his head,afther that they started drawing people,calling them gods and worshiping them,an example,the god of egypt ra has a sun disk on his head representing sun as god,ppl where that stupid when they first stretched out to walk like humans today,that they worshipped everything,sun rain fire rock,anything...

What the hell are you on about?

If being an atheist is so easy, Nate, why are you arguing for it?

Actually, I have met a lot of non-Christians. Like all these people in the thread that are against it.

Why be an atheist if you won't gain anything when you die? You still fight for the religion of nothing, and gain nothing.

Mohammed's religion is actually a combination of a bunch of others. Mohammed, a man who had heard a lot about a bunch of different religions but did not know the fundamentals of any of them, created a religion that appealed to his taste: in effect, worship me, Mohammed, and this god I just made up (Allah) and you'll get a sinful paradise that you can enjoy, where women are worthless. Why would any women want to be a Muslim? Not that I am one, but I can't understand their thinking.

every religion has its own side effects :D

Scraby, what are you? Do Scrabs have a religion or do they just mock all the others?

Atheists don't fight for nothing. They fight for the truth and against ignorance, which ultimately hurts people more than it does good.

Also, who said atheists believe in nothing? There are Agnostics aswell... And Atheists who simply wont dare assume they know the truth about things they have no proof of.

Some religious people on the other hand, will blindly believe in religion because it's comforting, despite it being disproved and questioned against in so many ways.

Really.. Atheists wouldn't care much either(well many of them wouldn't I guess.. I can't speak for everyone), if it wasn't for the fact that religion has so much negative power over the world.

I will agree to the fact that Islam does a lot of damage to the world. It is a religion of violence rather than peace.

But why would you fight against ignorance? If atheism is true, it's not like you'll gain anything more than I do after we die because you're right and I'm wrong, whereas if Christianity is right, I will gain something more.

And, yes, everyone cares about making it ahead in this life. I try my best to make a living like everyone else - but I don't shove people down to push myself up. Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone cared about helping each other, instead of insisting that morals are pointless and everyone is free to murder as much as they want?

No replies in 12 minutes...does that mean you're tired of arguing?

1. Don't double post.

2. Swallow your fucking nonsense, and go back to sleep. It's where you do your best thinking.

OANST, this thread is just about people arguing. Do we have your permission to request it to be closed, before we all start to hate each other?

Now you're just being a closeminded ... thing.
Islam isn't any more destructive than Christianity. Thousands of people have died on the hands of Christians too.

Why would I fight against ignorance? Funny question.
You're exactly that type of person, aren't you? Afraid of death..l Wishing that you don't just end when you die. Why did you choose islam? What if some other religion is true instead, and thus you end up in some shitty situation when you die cos you didn't follow that religion? What if Islam truly is the real religion?
That type of argument doesn't work, and it really just shows you're into cos because you're afraid/it's comforting.

But the trouble is that many people, once they've settled into a religion, they don't give a crap about anything else anymore. They stop evolving mentally, cos as long as they follow a set of rules, or repent their wrong-doings, they get an eternity and heaven-strawberries.
A lot of people hate gays because their religion tells them to. Is that fair? Does that sound like anything like a peaceful religion?
A lot of people are actively trying to strip people of freedom, because their religion tells that freedom is bad.

If religious people didn't interfere with other people's personal preferences and freedom, no one would mind them. Theough we'd probably still try to inform the masses.


You can't just say: Ima believe in religion, cos I want something after death. I wanna believe in Santa too, because then I may get presents for Christmas. if I don't believe in him at all, I may get none =(
Doesn't that sound stupid?

Please, if you believe in religion, have a valid reason at least... Like.. Talking to Jesus in your dreams or something.

EDIT: Also, really.. DON'T double post unless you have something super-valid to add... Otherwise Nate will do stuff.

Also.. Don't be like those impatient people who expect replies every 10 mins.

EDIT EDIT: Are there actually any numbers on which religions are the violent? That show approximately how many people died on hand of which religions? I'm trying to google search it, but I'm not finding anything fact based x_x

I caught 'Why do you fight against atheism?' somewhere in that mound of steaming shit.

I'm fighting against the stupid 'Lol I'm atheist and I know this argument so I'm smarter than you' mentality. It's really droll.

Because it's so easy. What's your point?

Like I said before, being atheist means I don't have to fight, and what I gain is plenty of freedom in this life.

Amazingly, that is the most ignorant thing you've said in this thread. You clearly don't know shit about Islam.

Why do you focus so much about death and not about life?


You really think that having religion is the only way to be moral in life? If anything, atheists are more moral than religious people because they do good because it's simply the right thing to do, not because they're expecting some sort of reward.

You might find this article interesting. It's about how to find morality withour religion.

Oh!

I found a great way to find morality without religion, it's called living your life.

What people have died on the hands of the Christians? Do Christian nations kill Muslims and prevent other religions from existing?

Muslim countries do, however. Christians are killed every day, because in countries like Pakistan, North Korea, etc., being a Christian is considered being a death sentence.

I believe in Christianity because not only is it best pragmatically (as you have pointed out, this cannot be the only reason) but also because all human beings are born with the knowledge that God is real and that all have sinned against Him. My conscience dictates that I follow His word, and I cannot go against my conscience. If atheism is true, then there is no real right and wrong. But if it is true, then it is God who has given men a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, and men's natural sin tells them to argue against their conscience and invent anything that people will believe other than the true God.

Thank you for reading my arguments. If there is proof presented against Christianity that totally drives my conscience into the ground, I will repent of my folly. But until then, I will advocate for Christ and His cause. I do not say these things to offend anyone, but because I believe they are true.

Please do not curse at me, because I will not curse back.

Hundreds of thousands?

Yes? Yes. A thousand times, yes.

If we're counting indirect deaths you can count a lot of Africans too.