close, but no cigar. You're talking about the tower of Babel (babel=babylon). According to the bible, the people there wanted to build a tower to declare war on god. So he caused them all to speak different languages which caused them all manner of problems. The tower-building ended when they all declared war on each other.

It was both


That will never happen. Saying that the whole solar system was made by a big bang out of pure chance is like saying I can break a watch, put it in a bag, and shake it up, and open it with the chance of it being completely repaired and on time.

close, but no cigar :D actulley I will now quote from the holy book
"And they said, 'Come, let us build us a city and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world'."

They wanted to be close to god which is one of the reasons, and also cause they didn't want to be seperated

"And the LORD saw what they were doing and said 'They have a common toungue and this is how they act? Come, let us go down and mix up their language so they shall be split.' So the LORD went down and scattered their language and called the land Babel, for he had confused their language"

It does not say that they declared war after that but war just comes like the snow and rain



don't mess wit me, I'm Jewish

Me too Abeguy. Sometimes I just get mixed up with Midrash.

Sodom and Gomorrah - I didn't mean that Christianity and Judiasm claim different things; rather that they emphasise different things.

And one final tip for getting along well in the OWF: when discussing religion, never state something as an absolute. Just because you beleive something to be true doesn't necessarily mean it should be stated as fact.

I absolutely love you to bits (chocolate bits). That is exactly what I believe. Science and Religion complement each other, neither one is greater than the other. They both serve to explain the other, afterall ;)

Oh, I must quote my dear friend Einstein:

Alcar...

On science Vs Religon..........


A cursory reevaluation of hostile abilitys indicates a distinct tactical deficiency................

(Yay! I rocks!!!! w00tness!!!!!)


Methinks That Quantum Laws are abit different from watch-breaking,Abeguy.
If god exists, what part of his existence makes his abilitys of creation and universal control? Is his existence Theoretical or Definite? Do his abilitys have a limit? If so, what are they? What is his goal? These, and many more questions I would like to know............................

Let me ask you. Do you believe everything in the bible such as a flood covering the whole world and Noah having two of every animal on his boat? (An impossibility considering the technology available when it was written)

Also is your image of God as he is made out to be in the bible or something you have created with your beliefs? In other words is your God the "real" Christian God.

You've probably gathered that I don't believe in God. Plus although the bible story has very good moral teachings thats all it is, a story, made up by people to control other people and an attempt at explaining things mankind cannot understand. Genesis claims that God made two people in the garden of eden but evidence shows that mankind evolved in Africa and traversed throughout the world during an ice age.
So if you believe in A God you would have to alter your beliefs.

*example of control using religion.

Poor man: me and the rest of the country are poor, we have no homes...I know, we'll rebel!
Rich man: Don't worry, because you're suffering now you will go to heaven and I'll go to hell, there's no need to rebel...

My goodness, how I detest the stench eminating from this thread. I shall return at a later moment in the day, to make my final stance and argument, and then be free of it's wretched fumes.

Side Note: Those among you who enjoy mocking the Bible, he's a novel concept...[I]read it[I]. For some of you (but not all, thank the lord), your delicious ignorance is most amusing.

'your delicious ignorance is most amusing.'

Surely that's the Paedophile calling the Rapist 'sick'?

See...that was a slant on 'The pot calling the Kettle Black'!

Yes, indeed that's great...

Yes, this thread smells rather fishy...

Speaking of Fish they can't be INBRED like the rest of as Noah didn't need to keep them on his boat.

Bring it on :fuzwink:

I refer you to my previous statement regarding absolute pronouncements. Just as no one religion can lay claim to the absolute truth, science (or at least your knowledge of science) can't either. Science is ultimately based on faith.

For example: one of the most widely held views of the sub-sub-sub-atomic particles is String Theory. The Strings fit in with a number of the calculations but the theory can never be confirmed or denied because the Strings are too small to test (If one atom was magnified to the size of the solar system, one string would be the size of a tree on Earth). Thus the physicists have faith in String Theory.

In any case, I have met many advanced physicists who beleive in religion, and who claim that their faith is based on their work.

In conclusion, don't make claims that the bible is just a story as that is merely your own, rather demeaning, opinion

Ok, I can except that and I'm sorry, I know my opinions are rather demeaning. My OPINION is that the way God is portrayed in the bible is mankinds interpretation of God as no-one could be sure as to what God is/would be like.

Also we've gone rather off-topic. My Religion, that I'm not the best follower of, doesn't as far as I can see condemn homosexuality as it claims that ALL feelings and emotions are a waste of time. Therefore feeling hate (homophobia) or compassion (loving someone) doesn't amount for anything except in terms of karma.

As for karma, I believe that supporting gay rights is the right thing to do. So I will have done something positive and shall be rewarded.

What's your religion?

I try to follow the basic teachings of Bhuddism.
As in the four noble truths and so on. I say I don't know much about it but I know it's the religion for me: No God.

...And now we return to our regularly scheduled oddcast...

Firstly, alow me to commence with some, "pre-emptive," spring cleaning.

*scoops up all his previous posts into a pile, and slips them into a paper shreader.*

After a recent discussion with my father, I have decided to slightly alter my position on this topic. I also realized, that all (or most all) of my previous posts in this thread:

A. Are confusing.
B. Contain a somewhat homophobic flavor.

As such, I have declared a revolution, of sorts, am now casting these all behind me, placing forth a fresh post. This post will, single-handedly, say what I have attempted to and should have said.

I retain my distaste and disagreement with Homosexuality, but am somewhat altering my dealings with them, and topics related with them. Before, I might have seemed somewhat...homophobic. Well, a talk with my father revealed something I missed: We must be tolerant, and accept the choices (stay tuned) of the individuals around ourselves. I realized that I had been on a warpath, of sorts, and shall, from this moment onwards, correct my behavior. I can, and will, tolerate these people.

Onwards, then...

Only 10% of the planet is, at this time, Homosexual. However, if one was to poll the Homosexual community, only 10% (of that 10%) are female. What we have here, is a 1:9 ratio. Now, nature keeps things balanced. The ratio of males to females, this to that, them to these, yadda, yadda, yadda...is very balanced. Slightly off, yes, but still, balanced. But 1 out of 10? Heavens no. 4 to 6? Yes, most likely. 3 to 7? Um...somewhat, perhaps. But 1 to 9? That's insane! But even this...is not the end! Most (So, a majority then) Lesbians will, when asked publicly, admit to chosing their lifestyle. Male or Female? They chose female...and as most will admit this, that already astounding ratio is stretched even further! Natural? I, personally think not.

NOTICE: As my mother as expressed as desire to make use of the computer at this time, it is my regret to inform you that this post must be continued at a later time...possibly a later date. But, I swear that I shall return, and address the following:

-Morality
-Homosexual Animals
-Gay Marraige
-Some information related with the Bible some of us would do well to know/remember.

To Be Continued...

Why are people bickering about humanity dying out? Just because they are homsexual doesn't mean they can't have sex with the opposite sex to save the human race.
They may choose not to but I'm sure they would with a bit of persuasion. :p

I can't really say yes or no; I'm neutrally opinionated on many parts of the Bible. I certainly believe that certain bits are fact, such as the existence of God and all the Jesus stuff. On the other hand, I believe several things are meant to be more... metaphorical or exaggerated... but not in a negative way. The whole flood thing... I doubt it happened, but I don't find that crucial to my faith in God... I believe that through God, anything is possible, but mostlikely that didn't happen. Something like a flood in some land somewhere happened and it was written about as the whole land but some where along the way someone thought it meant the entire world... or something. Oh, and yes, I completely understand the Bible has been subject to alterations and such.

Every single person that is Christian has differing opinions to some degree. To say that mine aren't the typical ones is not the same as saying I don't believe in the "real" Christian God.

Yes... a fine example of something I believe is perhaps more metaphorical. Actually, I have many hypotheses about creation. It would take so long to explain them all. Two examples of factors involving evolution that I take into consideration include: 1) Through evolution, God would still be creating the first humans from "dust", especially if the Big Bang Theory is true. 2) A person that claims that God just went *poof* "I've just created a single man and women" technically has to believe in evolution of the human species occuring at least after the creation of the first two. If the whole human race came from only 2 individuals, changes in the population (the basic definition of evolution) had to take place in order to get the variety of races we have today. This would have taken place as humans began to spread across the world as they adjusted to differing climates and whatever.

Oh, and in response to your saying the two don't agree, I personally say the presumed evidence shows "the Garden of Eden" metaphor, story, or fact (for the sake of not ruling out anything is possible through God) was in Africa. :)

I once heard Gerald Schroeder, a biblical scientist, speak and he suggested an interesting interpretation on Genesis:

The six days of creation are rather six 'eras'. You can interpret the bible to be talking about the big bang and evolution (eg creation of light is creation of the energy that makes up the universe, seperation of land and sea is the forming of the cosmos, etc). This is a loose interpretation of course.

Continuing on from that he says that mankind evolved from the ape in such a way that two homonids were born that had 'mutated' into humans whilst their parents and families counted as neanderthals (or whatever). Thus humanity is evolved from those two - Adam and Eve. Of course there would have been interbreeding between the new humans and the pre-humans over the years but eventually the humans won out. Apparently there is some reference in Genesis to intelligent beings before Adam was created.

I'm not sure whether I agree with that theory myself, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.

Neph, I question your statistic that most Lesbians choose that way of life. I'm not saying that it never happens - my brother was telling me a while back about someone he knew who chose lesbianism because she was a wacko feminist and thought no man was good enough for her - but I doubt that it is most.

Nate, that was so awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I don't believe the world was created in what we consider days, and that pretty much sums up a lot of what I thought to some degree, only much more scientifically backed. Like I said in some post earlier in this thread, God probably defines certain things differently than we do, such as "all powerful" and "all knowing", and in this case, days. A dåy for us compared to his eternity-ness is like a second to him.

When it comes to some of the stories in the Bible, I would always keep in mind the basic principles of ancient literature. From what I've gathered in my time, many stories are based on exhaggerated events and characters, perhaps based loosely on real characters. Not to mention the history of the book itself. Back in the days of hand copying books, there's nothing to say certain individuals of the church (which has a touchy history in itself) didn't make their own interpretive alterations to the text. The translation from Latin to the old (more or less) tribal-esuqe language of Enlgish didn't happen for a good while, presenting plenty of oppurtunity for editing by the upper class, literate church. Add to that none of the original texts have been discovered...

I don't much find The Bible's word to be a solid argument. To each their own, however.

Yay for String Theory!


..... Bonobo sound abit yukki to meeeeeee......


Religon.....I suppose that it might be important for.......um?....Er....Something...........A-hah!
Speech! Without religon, We'd have nothing to curse!

I shall now remake Alcars words!!!!

A world without religon lacks character, But A world without science is pathetic...............(my personal belief)
..........................................
..........
Ghost

Yes, but... Genesis is from the Old Testament, the Hebrew version of which has remained virtually unchanged for at least 2000 years and probably much longer, based on the Dead Sea Scrolls. The translations are shonky in parts
(eg Moses with horns) but have gotten better over the centuries.

An extra Gerald Schroeder reference for Ambi's enjoyment:

Before the big bang, there were no dimensions. After it the universe spread out, taking with it space and time. One theory is that the amount of the time dimension is finite and fixed so that as it expands, time slows down. Now, take the estimated age of the universe and divide it by how much it has expanded and you get... Six days and twenty-something hours! Thus you could say that we are still in the seventh day of rest.

Make of that what you will. :)

Put very simply, I follow my heart. My heart tells me that everyone is equal, and everyone should be treated equal, regardless. I don't need the Bible to fall back on, I use it to strengthen my faith by interpreting its meaning for myself - what my heart tells me is right. You'll find that the more you let your brain run your actions, the more you hurt others. Because your brain has its own interests, survival. And it can be easily illustrated: Injure someone to the point of inducing shock, and watch as the brain shuts down organ after organ, in a bid to save itself. Until only the brain remains, and by then, no other organs exist to sustain it.

My heart tells me that homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, transvestites, blacks, women, everyone deserves fair treatment. One of the biggest mistakes people of western religions make, is to completely make themselves hypocrites - treat others how you would want others to treat you. Jesus taught this thoroughly by socialising, healing, and what not with harlots, outsiders, pagans, the poor, etc. And yet by discriminating against homosexuals, westeners slander everything he has taught. And more and more people are seeing this hypocrisy, by opening their minds and listening to their hearts. I preach, people, cast out the demons that plague your minds, listen to what God has instilled with you all, your soul.

Apart from my tongue in cheek preaching, I'd just like to point out that women are still oppressed by Catholicism. It's an interesting fact, too, that in early Christian times, women were not barred from being priests, and priests did not have to practice celibacy. Certainly something for you to think about.

Alcar...

I heard a while a go, and from some random source about Religion, that somewhere in the Bible Jesus says that Prostitutes will be the first to get into Heaven. But this is kept on the "down-low" for obvious reasons. True?

And of course there's going to be a minority of people who choose Homosexuality. I know one Gay guy who has chosen to be Bisexual, and although he hates for thought of being with a girl, he feels it's the only way he can be, thanks to his family et al.

That's actually a well documented fact, kept under wraps by Christian conservatives from the medieval ages. And Bill Gates is really giving away billions of dollars because of an Intel/AOL merger.

'That's actually a well documented fact, kept under wraps by Christian conservatives from the medieval ages. And Bill Gates is really giving away billions of dollars because of an Intel/AOL merger.'

I think only somebody of Higher status, and Bible-bashing shenanigans, is the only person qualified to mock me in such a blatant manner.

I thoroughly agree with you ;)

Buddhist teachings state that a buddhist is to abstain from sexual misconduct, Not to dissaprove of it and discrimate against others.

Now now, I'm not trying to mock you specifically. More along the lines that any religious source would ever claim such a notably silly stance. Though, I'm a tad puzzled as to why a man of your intelligence didn't catch on to the stench of falsifications right away:p

In an effort to make this simultaneously brief and understandable, I shall ignore my usual verbose writing style.

Here's my upshot people. I'm not asking you to agree with me, just understand me.

-I believe Homosexuality is wrong
-I believe it is a choice. Never been proved natural in the first place.
-I will tolerate it. I will live in peaceful co-existance. Everyone has free will, and I shall not be judgemental of other's choices.
-I will not approve of it, or engage in or say yes to anything that shows approval.
-The Bible, if nothing else, is a moral guide, and it clearly states in both testaments the sinful nature of Homosexuality. All that changes, is that we should be tolerant, not judgemental.

As for everything about religion and stuff...wait. I said earlier I would make a Thread about the Bible, and I will, but not now (Homework...plus my mom needs the computer again).

Finally, a poser for Athiests: How did everything get created (according to you). Last time I checked, you guys insist that everything has a begining and an ending, and that nothing was there forever. With this in mind, answer the question. PM your answers, or write them here. Thank you.

It was a question. It was apparently stated on some random programme about Religion - which i didn't see...but was told of. That's why i asked. Or...at least, it was s'posed to have been asked.

Well, this is a difficult question. I believe that the universe was created by an explosion (big bang) but then it gets more difficult.
Did God, create the big bang to kickstart the universe?
If the explosion was not caused by God then what else could cause this?
What came before the big bang?
And most importantly if everything must have a beginning where does God begin?
Where did God come from?
Who created God?

If the response to the above question is like this we've heard it all before:

"God is almighty, he cannot be created or destroyed nor can you, a mere mortal, comprehend his everlasting existence"

Opinion: No creation theory or speculation is any greater than another as they cannot be proved wrong or right.

The universe was created by three giant, pink bunny rabbits who, following it's completion, destroyed themselves and their remains formed the vast expanse of matter we see today in space.

That is my theory, prove it wrong and you shall win some giant pink bunny rabbit merchandise.

(This thread could have so many spin-offs, someone should create some more)

I've always thought that the universe was created by accident by a bunch of NASA scientists researching time-travel techniques.

My point. Many individuals shun away from various religions, because the aforementioned faiths are, "too far-fetched." In truth, all religions are somewhat, "fantastic," and that includes Atheism.

Very quick my friend. You are deserving of a cookie.

*Passes a plate of fresh cookies to Rich.*

By the way.

I do not care what religion you have positioned yourself with, these are hilarious (My appologies, if you are not joking).

Oh, I'm sure they're dead serious.

Atheism isn't a religion.

I don't find the God Version of Creation particularly far-fetched in itself, I find most concepts of what God is and most religious beliefs far-fetched. I believe in science, though, so I am a supporter of the Big Bang theory. If that makes any sense at all. Probably not. Oh well.

To me, the word "immoral" suggests that something in some way hurts other people. Like, it's immoral to sell your multi-billion dollar corporation off and fire all your employees. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, therefore I don't consider it immoral.

As for the naturality of homosexuality, I don't really have any proof either way. The one thing I go by is people who hate themselves for being what they are. Either they subconsciously choose homosexuality because they want to hate themselves (this would involve one of those complex psychological explanations), or it's beyond their control. The latter seems the simpler of the two, so I assume it is correct.

The Buddha. . . what a great dude. I could probably do Buddhism but for two things: 1) I'm American-- love of the material has been instilled in me since day one, and 2) the whole abstinence thing. I'm a little odd in my thinking about that. I think lust is bad to give in to, but I don't believe in total sexual repression. I think a balance of sentient thought and animal instinct is necessary to live neither as a savage nor as an animal that lies to itself for the sake of feeling special.

Shintoism, I think, sounds awesome. From what I've heard of it, it's basically small god worship. Like, spirits of the land worship. Sort of nymph-like deities, if you will. Worship of things neither here nor there. I've probably read way too many fantasy novels about tapping the mana of the land and using magic and whatnot.

Speaking of which, if anyone is interested in the whole "spirits of the land" sort of thing, I highly recommend the book "Found". It starts off like some kind of boring survival novel, but it quickly becomes deeply supernatural in. . . nature. It's set in the Scottish moorlands or someplace like that, and there are all these ancient ghosts and things haunting the place and it's just spooky as hell. But it's also about these two abandoned children born into a society in the future with no room for them and they find an abandoned infant and have to survive and learn to deal with each other and assume the roles of mother and father and take care of it/him/her (forgot the gender, not important anyway). Anyway, it's cool.

And I'm done. This took a while.

I'm no scientist; any theory I attempt to conjure would be subject to immense plotholes. Someday, we may know how the universe was created. Or, we may not. It's a bit illegitimate to ask a question based on theories and scientific knowledge we haven't discovered yet. You couldn't ask how a lightbulb worked 500 years ago. You couldn't ask how a digital projector worked 50 years ago. You can't ask how (arguably) the most important event in the history of the universe occured at this present day.

Neither side can prove anything, as of yet. And our generation (most likely) will never know. But quite personally, that's just dandy with me.

Indeed. How the universe was made is never going to affect me or anyone on earth in this day and age, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

That was a pretty obvious answer. Why did I not see it? Majic, you cut through that dilemma like a hot knife through bullshit.

Dumb ass double post...

Edit: I'll say something constructive and relevant.

Only the strong forms of Buddhism make you give away stuff and live in a monastery.(Kinda like orthodox people)
The western types let you keep your favoured stuff but teach you to accept that material possesions are not permanent and ultimately stand for nothing.

Ummm, what is the definition of atheism?

Is it the belief that God doesn't exist? If so then some religions can be classed as atheism...

Shite. Double bloody post...

In response to Alcars's last post, I also follow my heart on such matters discussed in this thread, which is probably fairly obvious. My heart tells me God created everything and everyone, and that's all that really matters. My heart doesn't care how it happened, but that doesn't mean my brain isn't curious and sometimes wonders if it could be this way or that. I know the difference between my brain and my heart, and I think when combined, they both work at their full potential. :)

Hey...trust me. In my life, I've learned not to jump to conclusions. You would not believe some of the strange individuals who we co-exist with.

I hate to disturb your thought process, but you have made an error in this assessment. A religion is a belief system. As such, you believe there is no deity.

In fact, after reviewing recently reviewing Atheist beliefs, I find it quite difficult to understand why they are not the most tolerant people on the planet. They should be, but they (seem to) fail at this...at least, the ACLU and Mike N...

A fair assessment. Well...there is Archeology...but I digress.

Buddhists believe there is no deity. Does that make them atheists?