Thank you for that perfect example. I strongly DON'T believe in seperation of church and state, but I'm not marching for more Christian rights. I'm not trying to make our government teach Christianity in schools, while gays are trying to have their lifestyle taught as an acceptable choice.

I didn't say child molesting. Many times paedophiles brainwash kids into thinking what they do is okay. Which means the minor is consenting to the behavior. But that doesn't mean they are right. It was just a comparison though and I do believe that there is a strong difference.

I also never said gays shouldn't have rights. They just shouldn't have special ones.

I'm assuming you mean copulating with somebody outside of marriage. One of the Christian members here once said that all recreational sex was sinful and only "whores" participated in it. I won't mention that persons name, but do you believe this also? And on the drug use issue, does this mean that you don't participate in Pain killers? Or other such treatment? And on the swearing thing, words these days are becoming less and less thought about. For instance back some time ago "Heck", "Damn" and "Hell" were classed as swearwords. Do you think that all swearwords in the History of man are sinful or only those that are "in" with todays society?

It's not so much as we "push" people to accept it. But we make people aware of it and make them aware that it is normal. I'm not one of these types to go all marching and waving banners around and shtuffs, but if i see a Queer getting harassed on the street i will intervene. As soon as society realises and acknowledges that we are here and we always will be and there is nothing they can do, then the trouble will stop. It's just getting past that point.

This is because the constitution is in your favour. America is a vast country with a Bible belt bigger than the average Americans waist (oh, i slipped a wee one in there) and so Politicians and other political figures appeal to your kind in order to get votes. As far as i am concerned as much as America thinks its one of the best countries with all its Amendments and stuff, its also one of the worst. Set back by religion. I've seen celebrities go on English talkshows and say "f*ck" and then immediatly panic because they believe they'll get random people ringing in complaining. Compared to the Americans the British are immensly relaxed when it comes to many a-trivial matter. Sure, we have the odd people who are against stuff the vast majority of people don't mind, but that's everywhere.

Right, when we talk about this topic could we add a few other minority groups, please. Such as Transgendereds and Transexuals. That way it makes it seem less about me making the topic what it is just to get a decent argument going. Which i'm not doing by the by. But to remark to your statement we don't and the vast majority aren't unhappy with what they are. They would rather be straight and dislike some peoples attitudes but in the end they don't have the problem. (I'm not one of these "I-wanna-be-straight-because-its-easier" types by the by. I find being the way i am helps relax people when i meet them.)

That is your opinion. Its consequently wrong, but still. Like i have said above there have been countless tests done on the Homosexual issue, stating we have had a lack of testosterone when we were manifesting in the womb. The Lesbian thing is a mystery though, they haven't figured that out yet. But on your point of a Paedophile having a choice, its slowly becoming apparent they don't. Its supposed to be a brain default, still, i think they should all take a bath in acid, because what they do is ultimatly wrong. Also an alcoholic could have a disorder in their brain that makes them more dependant on certain things...the alcoholics "thing" being alcohol. A Heroin addict could have been brought up in a bad neighbourhood, and although thats not an excuse, pressured into taking the drug. We all know how easily manipulated teens are and how some of them have the attitude of "We only live once, so try everything and anything new." which is my attitude, aside from the living part, but i have common sense not to take such hardcore substances. But i have been educated. On the murderer and rapist issue these could both be put down to a certain "fetish" although its doubtful. I think some murderers are mentally unstable but others do what they do for a certain reason -

A) Crime of Passion
B) Child was hurt
C) Close friend was hurt

etc. Rapists, i feel, are f*cked in the head. Why would anybody choose to rape someone? It's puzzling. Anyway, didn't Jobe kill someone? Because of God saying so. How do we know that these people aren't ordered by God.

That's what my Nan believes. But when modern day Science comes up with more and more information on said topics every day it makes it harder to believe that, that is true.

So did women in the early 1900's. I don't see whats so wrong about that. In the end you must agree that if we accept them the way they are there'll be less hate crime against them. We can accept them now and realise they're just like us, with different tastes, and in 10-20 years time be a little bit more civilised. Or, we can continue to drag this issue on, forcing it to share its issue with other important topics.

It seems more selfish that you want to deny people rights just because you have a small book that tells about it, which is going to be changed eventually.

Then you don't have freedom of speech. Anyway, its generally considered wrong in America. Where, like i said, the Bible belt over there is massive and the Bible itself is taken far too seriously.

If they do say that then maybe people will say "Fine, whatever, you're still f*cked up". Nobody would really sympathise with them, because what they are actually doing is molesting a minor. Whereas gays have consenting sex with adults (or with people their own age).

I don't think you can call these signs 'Godlike'. Possibly due to the first being down to Adrenalin. The second could be put down to self-respect. And the third down to good medical treatment and a positive attitude.

There a minor and thus its still rape. Besides, Paedophiles are vicious, manipulative people and the only way we can really combat them is by being more open with our kids about sex and our bodies. There's a quote i heard that came from a Paedophile a couple of months back and it goes -

"Show me a child who knows nothing about sex, and i'll show you my next victim"

I'm currently in contact with a Paedophile now who thinks im a 13 year old girl. He's 45 and the stuff he comes out with is appauling. He's even claimed to "love" me and is giving me money to buy a webcam so i can show myself. That kind of thing is repulsive and as soon as i find out where he lives, he can be expecting a knock on the door from the Police...either that or if he lives nearer he can bask in the flames of a Petrol bomb.

I didn't realise they protested for "special rights". I thought the whole gay parade thing was to show that they're gay, its normal, people should just accept it and get over it. And also for the same rights as Heterosexual people have. Such as an allowance to be married, adopt kids etc.

But like i said and i believe you've already proved. The Bible cannot be proved to be Gods word. But anyway, what happens when they bring out a newer version of the Bible that declares that Homosexuality isn't a sin. Will you change your views?

Very nice Jacob. I found myself almost at a loss as to what to say to him. I was dumbfounded by the amount of ignorance that has been spouted out here. Let me get one thing straight Khanzumer. I do not think that you are a bad person. I spent my entire life in a baptist church and school so I understand exactly why you believe what you do. Unfortunately you are wrong. I don't just blatantly say that either. Your belief that gays have a choice is not only scientifically innacurate but as a person who should be able to experience empathy, amazingly stupid. You imply that a homosexual should come to the right decision and become straight. That implys that they are doing something wrong or hurtfull. which they aren't. If you can give me one valid example of why it is wrong I will send you an envelope with 100 dollars in it. God said so doesn't count. Also the whole procreation thing doesn't count either. That doesn't really make a thing wrong does it? Also you said that they should not have special rights. What special rights have they asked for? What have they asked for that we don't have? Do you know why they want to teach tolerance in the classroom? SO THAT CHRISTIAN FREEDOM FIGHTERS WILL STOP BEATING THEM TO DEATH IN THE DAMN STREETS! YOU NEED TO OPEN YOUR DAMN EYES TO THE WORLD AROUND YOU. OUT OF ALL THE AWFULL AND TERRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THIS WORLD YOU ARE GOING TO CONDEMN HOMOSEXUALITY AS EVIL? SOMETHING THAT CREATES NO PROBLEMS IN AND OF ITSELF? JESUS CHRIST! OPEN YOUR MIND!

Well said, Old and Not So Tasty. I agree with absolutely everything you said.

I'd be interested to know how the Christians here would judge an intersexed person in regards to homosexuality. Someone who is born with ambiguous genitalia and/or chromosome abnormalities which essentially render the person a combination of both sexes seems to question the parts of the bible which condemn homosexuality. Should these people just select the sex they are naturally attracted to and go from there, or should they remain celibate?

It's been scientifically proven that altering the androgen levels of pregnant mammals produces homosexual offspring, offspring that behave like that of the opposite sex, and offspring with an ambiguous physical sex. Androgen levels can be disrupted in a natural pregnancy, for many reasons. If scientific studies have shown that sexuality is a fixed part of our biology, then how can sexual attraction be something someone has control over? Obviously, someone can choose whether or not to act on their desires, but they can't choose to be sexually attracted to the sex to which they have no instinctual desire.

In my opinion, Christianity is a primitive, outdated belief system that devalues human life and underestimates the complexity of the world we live in.

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The Glass Asylum

Then can't you just pray to win the lottery? Or pray we will all be believe you by tomorrow? Of course you can! Because it works everytime. Right?

This Not so old an tasty guy is great. Someone give him a gold star.

I'm actually thankful for your responses because in some things you are right. And to most people everything else is really just a matter of opinion.

I believe that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Married male and female couples who have sex for recreation are okay. God made sex pleasurable for a reason. To test and strengthen us, as well as help husband wife relationships.

And hopefully so would I. The harassers are not "righteous" even if they call themselves Christians. This is one of the reasons I can't stand some people who supposedly have the same beliefs as me.

True. But if this wasn't the case, I would try my hardest to obey my government without going against my religion. I am very grateful to live in the country I live in. It was founded by "christians" after all.

As for all your science that suggests gays don't have a choice. I cannot say that is not true because I haven't studied it. I'm no scientist. But since it is only the sexual act of homosexuality I disagree with I don't see why this is a problem. If a person loves someone of the same gender that is fine. We should all try to love each other. But even if gays are born attracted to men, that doesn't make them any hornier or less able to abstain from sex. It would just mean they have to try harder to do what is right. I do believe homosexuality and all the other sins I listed are societal disorders. People raised in certain ways are more prone to do certain things. That does not make it okay. I believe everyone has a choice. If you don't believe in choice, please tell me why you continue living? After all, if you can't decide how to live your life, what is the purpose of living it?

This is basically true. But how far do we take it? If homosexuality is accepted why don't we accept paedophiles, murderers, drug users, etc... After all none of them have a choice according to you. And if they do have a choice, they can change their way. You can argue with that logic. If they have a choice they can chose to not live the way they do, if they don't have a chose then nobody has a choice and we should give up all ideas of morality. Is what you that what you believe? That there is no such thing as morality and all life is meaningless? If so, I sincerely hope you at least try to live "morally" for other peoples sakes at least.

Sorry. I wasn't using the word miracle in that same sense. I just ment that we should appreciate the good things we have and not sham "signs from god" like PA was describing.

That is true and it was sort of the point I was making. The people think it is right, truelly think it is, but it is not. And I commend your work to put another child molester in jail.

[QUOTE]But like i said and i believe you've already proved. The Bible cannot be proved to be Gods word. But anyway, what happens when they bring out a newer version of the Bible that declares that Homosexuality isn't a sin. Will you change your views?[QUOTE]

No. There is only one true Bible, and we have the Dead Sea scrolls and other references to show what it is. My grandpa, has actually learned aramaic and greek languages just to make sure the english translation of the Bible is authentic. If a human changed the Bible, it would not be the Bible, but a work of human altered literature.

What is the point of marriage. A legal bonding of man and women as one soul united. Two different sexes coming together as one. Marriage between two men or two women is meaningless. A woman is already a woman a man already a man. They do not complete each other, so what is the point of a big expensice legal ceremony? Also if they believe they are doing something right, does it really matter what the world thinks?

Can you honestly say a homosexual man or woman leaving their spouse and kids for lust (you can love person without having sex with them) doesn't harm the family? I can't. Also what is wrong or hurtful? We all have different ideas about morality. I know someone who has a very hard life. He isn't gay (as far as I know) but his biological mother is and he has had some hard things to deal with because of it. His lesbian mother isn't harming herself or her partner, but because of her choice her kids no longer have a married father and mother and are not very socially adjusted.

NO TRUE CHRISTAIN WOULD BEAT A MAN TO DEATH, NO MATTER WHAT HIS CRIME. MY EYES ARE OPEN AND I DON"T LIKE WHAT I SEE. I THOUGHT I MADE A POINT OF SAYING THAT EVERYONE COMMITS EVIL DEEDS. NOW I HAVE. I DON'T CONDEMN HOMOSEXUALS, THEY CONDEMN THEMSELVES. WE ALL CONDEMN OURSELVES. DON'T TAKE THE LORDS NAME IN VAIN AND MY MIND IS OPEN, JUST IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN YOURS IS.

Sydney you raise a very good point and I am not sure how I stand on the issue of people born both genders. I will just have faith in God that the doctors chose the right gender. Besides can't they give them hormones, since according to you the testosterone and estrogen levels control sexual preference?

It seems to me a belief where humans are all victims of society and science devalues human life much more than Christianity. At least Christians believe that everyone has a soul and that everyones souls tries to do what is right and that when we die we have a chance to go to heaven

Wow, this is getting awfully Matrix Reloaded with all this 'choice' stuff.

What about straight family divorces? It leaves the children just as distraught as a break-up involving homosexuals. Homosexuality is wrong because it is what the Church has force fed you. Are you that devoted to the Church that if the Priest ordered you to jump off a (very high :p) bridge, that you'd do it?

Of course not. You're not that moronic.

I also happen to believe that we have a soul. I believe it dictates our lives, and acts as both our concious and sub-concious.

But, that isn't because someone has told me to believe it. It's because I truly believe in it. Even after 15 years of Catholic teaching and brain-washing it hasn't worked on me, I am able to think on my own, like so many others.

It might also interest you, that I am the number one student in Religion at my Catholic School. Now, just how screwed up is that? :p

Remember, 9 out of 10 Humans in the world, are NOT Christians :D

Alcar...

No, hormones will only have an effect on a prenatal brain. Once the child is born, administering male or female hormones isn't going to do anything but alter physical characteristics. The current trend among doctors is to leave intersexed children the way they are until they can decide for themselves if they feel like a boy or a girl. It used to be common practice to surgically assign intersexed babies soon after birth and tell parents to bring them up in their assigned sex. But as these children grew older, many of them claimed, if they'd been assigned male, that they felt like girls, and vice versa. Most of these children were never told of their intersexuality, which proves gender isn't constructed socially, but biologically.

Who said anything about victims of society? Christianity is a black and white world in which the complexity of human life is rounded down into a simple system of reward and punishment. I'd think the motivation to do good deeds is more admirable in a non-Christian, who doesn't need the hope of heaven or the fear of hell to refrain from hurting people.

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The Glass Asylum

Well, you can't be selfish when you pray... you have to pray for things that you need, so if I was a homeless man on the streets, and I had money for a lotto ticket, maybe I would win. All the non-selfish thing that I have prayed for have worked out for the best. I can't force you guys to believe, it all comes back to your guys choices. I'd really like it if I got on tomorrow and you all were saying "Yeah, ok Grig and the rest of the cool people were right, please forgive us for ever doubting you oh great and wise ones!" But I highly doubt that.

I think most of what TheKhanzumer was saying wasn't bad...in fact I though it was mostly good. Go Khanzumer, your welcome here!

No offence old and not so tasty, but I think that your suffering from an overdose of those drugs that your so fond of. Prescripion drugs don't count, you have to have a prescription for a reason. You can't just go into a pharmacy and get the newest brand of pain killer for fun. Plus, without some of those things, lots and lots of people would DIE!!!

Since when did it become the job of the christians on the forums to decide what is morally correct when it comes to homosexuality?

As far as I'm concerned, homosexuals/transgenders/whatever will go to heaven if they are good people. It wasn't like I suddenly hated gays when I asked Christ for forgiveness, because they go against "God's Divine Plan." I'm the same person I've always been. The actual religion is outdated, and it's word's have been twisted over the years by the will of man... yet another reason why I choose not to go to church.

Gays or transgenders can't help the way God made them; it's not like they have a f*cking choice. I can imagine St. Peter at the gates Heaven... "Sorry little Johnny, but God made you gay, so you're screwed for all eternity." Not very fair is it? Like someone up there said, you can't choose to be homosexual, you can only choose not to act on your desires.

Now this whole "playing God" thing by changing your child with hormones isn't something I can delve into right now... because I'm not sure of it. I am not saying that children altered in the womb are going to Hell because they're "evil" or anything, I just don't think that those sort of things should be tampered with.

True. So, if a Gay Priest was going to be ordained to Bishop or whatever and he was celebate...he should be allowed to because he is celebate. Right? (I'm not sure if Gene thingy is without a partner, but i'm talking about the one in England who was ordained. He was without a partner and celebate and there was a mass uproar about him being promoted. It was all the Christian Gays Vs the Christian Straights).

Anyway, i don't see why we should abstain. If we were allowed to get married would it be ok then? I've heard that its not the act of Homosexuality that Christians disagree with, but the fact they're not married thats the problem.

Just because i don't decide who i am attracted to, doesn't mean my life will be totally void of choice.

Because Paeds, murders, drug users etc are all harming themselves or others. Homosexuals are just prancing along in their own little world trying to get by without being harassed in some shape, way or form. Whereas the other people hurt others and should thus be locked away until they can be "cured".

Marriage is about two Souls coming together as one, regardless of the exterior (gender) the two Souls are the same as everybody elses and if marriage helps these Souls to meld together then we should be allowed to do just this. Our love shouldn't be allowed to go unshown.

And on the expensive ceremony thing, who said it has to be expensive? It could be a small gathering.

I believe in most cases they just want to feel as if they have the same rights as other, heterosexual couples. They may also want people to know how much they love one another, much like the reason why hetro's get married.

That we do, but when it comes to the important issues we know whats what. We know that its wrong to commit an act of cold-blooded murder. We know that its wrong to harm a child. We know that its right to help somebody. And we know its right to be civil to each other. The rest are all blurred. My family think all Prostitutes are scum and should be thrown in jail. Whereas i believe that the Prostitutes on Drugs should be thrown in jail, yet the ones doing it to support their family are amazing individuals. I, with my family, agree that murder is ok if its justified (killing someone for harming you/your child/a close friend etc). Others disagree with this.

On the whole having a homosexual parent thing, did he have a hard time because he, personally, disagreed with it? Or because society itself disagreed with it? In the wrong society a person can be beaten into a coma just because their father, brother, mother etc is a homosexual. In the right society, homosexual parents are treated like everybody else and treated correctly and respectfully. Their children are not picked on, not harassed, but treat normally. However, to find a society like this is very hard. You're always going to find some random person who disagrees with some random thing wherever you go.

Yes Christianity is black and white. I am a black and white thinker. In my mind, there is good and there is bad. You can't be sort of bad but mostly good. A person has good qualities and bad qualities. Black and white is exactly the way I think and I can't stand the idea of grey. I guess this is the fundamental difference between our opinions. There are black and white thinkers and there are grey thinkers and neither can ever truelly understand each other. I don't understand how a grey thinker can have any opinions, because if one issue is grey wouldn't they all be? And I assume you think that black and white people are stubborn and won't listen to the facts. But that is not true. A black and white thinker can change what they think is black and what they think is white. I don't think simplicity devalues human life. It just makes things... simpler.

And I also think non-religious people who do good are more admirable than religious do-gooders because frankly I don't understand what their motivation would be. Without the hope of heaven what stops you from doing whatever you want? Your own special goodness that you made up and decided for yourself? I comend you for that. I know that people with different beliefs can both be good people, but I believe that only one of them can be right.

Christians aren't deciding they should be informing. Look up 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:9-11 and Romans 1:26-27. Also, the only reason homosexuality is a "big deal" all of a sudden is because gays and lesbians are currently trying to get the world to accept what they do and have children taught that is normal. It isn't a worse sin than any other (in fact the Bible says that the sin God hates the most is lying, which pretty much makes everyone incredibly condemned). Sadly Christians usually roll over and let the veiws of the world weaken their convictions, which is why I am making this effort to stand firm when I could be outside playing soccer. Which doesn't sound that bad actually...

That is true for some people, but like a said earlier I believe marriage is only meaningful between a man and a woman. God created Eve to complete Adam because he was not good enough alone. Man needs woman to complete them and visa versa. I think that men and women should occupy equally important roles in society, but I think they should share different ones, especially in regards to the family.

And no, I'm not one of those people who thinks a women's place is in the kitchen. I think women have every right to an education and become a successful whatever they chose to do. I'm glad that our society recognizes their importance and intelligence.

I disagree. Men can love each other, but they can never have what a happily married for fifty years grandmother and grandfather have. Don't tell there isn't a difference. If homosexuality is really about love and not lust, then why can't you just abstain from sex? Why do you need marriage to tell the world about your love? Why? You don't need marriage and sex to express your love to each other and to the world. If so, then parents must not love their children, and siblings must not love each other. Unless of course you believe that incest should be accepted today... which is another topic.

It my opinion it doesn't matter. He might be okay with it now, but I think it is a safe bet he would rather have his father and moher both happily married to each other. As for society, nobody goes out of their way to tease him. In fact, most people try so hard not to judge they sometimes treat him with more respect than they would otherwise. I agree with what you say happens in a wrong society. But I believe in a right society, homosexuality wouldn't even exist and neither would lying, cheating, stealing, violence, hate, alcoholism, etc... It's a lot to ask for sure, but despite your opinions on all issues, the world WOULD be an easier place to live in if everyone shared the same beliefs. My liberal friends at school used to call me Hitler which was very unfair. There is a difference between wanting everyone to have blonde hair blue eyes and wanting everyone, no matter what their race, to believe in what everyone else they meet believes in.

Can't we all just get along? I wish so but I don't believe so. Sure we can all treat each other with the respect we all deserve, but when it comes right down to it everyone is different. I wish we were all spiritually the same, but since that is not possible I will try my hardest to share my views with others. Notice I did not say wanted to force others to change. But I will always share, and any change that results happened because the person always wanted it to deep down.



EDIT: In response to Alcar's comment about force-fed religion and brainwashing. First of all, I consider myself very lucky in the fact that both my parents, all my grandparents and most of my aunts, uncles and cousins are all the same religion as I am. Much of my family actually goes to the same church as I do and my grandpa is the preacher there. I have not been forced to go to church though. I wasn't baptized until recently when I decided I wanted to be. I have chosen to follow the beliefs of my family and if I chose not to, they would be disappointed in me, but they would also let me. I have grown up in a Church whos members have include people of all ages and ethnic groups, asians, africans, whities like myself and latin americans. We have also had members who were ex-child molesters, reformed drug users, divorced families, porn addicts and a guy who had an affair with at least two other men's wives. We are, needless to say, a very tolerant congregation. But that does not mean we change the values taught in the Bible to whatever is convenient to us. We do our best to follow the Bible and teach it to others. I'm on a tangent... The point is, I would never jump off a building or whatever because my grandpa said so. I have a lot of respect for him, but he and no other preacher, is an inspired messanger from God. I know what the Bible requires of me, I have studied it and have chosen that I want to live my life according to its guidlines. If my whole Church and family decided to commit suicide to get to heaven sooner I would not. I know they would probably go to Hell (God makes the final judgement though) and that what they are doing is wrong according to the Bible. I am not brain washed. Brain washing is for weak people with no real convictions who do whatever is convenient at the time while thinking they are right. I chose how I wanted to live.

I know you were joking Alcar, but I wanted to make a point. I'm not holding anything against you. :fuzsmile:

TheKhanzumer is good at this!!! Anyway, where are we going with this whole topic of discussion? Are we getting anywhere with you guys or are we wasting our time??? I hope that we're helping you, not making you never want to be reliegios.

I may be getting this one, but does that mean if you kill someone out of self-defense you have committed a sin and will go to Hell. Or if a family member killed someone who they knew was going to kill a young child, you would turn your back on them and feel they were going to take a bath in Hells boiling water.

Ok, lets just say it isn't normal and they do choose to be what they are. Who cares? Who's right is it to teach a child that what they're doing is ultimatly wrong and they deserve to be punished for it? Shouldn't we be teaching children to accept people and their differences, to embrace other people and their views instead of turning all nasty on them just because of what they do behind closed doors.

Does that mean i'm ok then? I have tonnes of girls in my life...so, that means i'm complete, right?

Because, like all relationships, sex is important to keep it together. Intercourse with another person means for that period of time you are one with them, you're intimate with them. Straight couples express their love through sex, why cannae we?

It's not to "tell the world" its to feel accepted and like everybody else. To feel as if we have the same rights as everybody else and are not discriminated against for who we are. Also, maybe even for the advantages of being married.

We don't hold out sexlives on display. But, like i said, sex is one of the biggest forms of expression of love that there is. Going by your logic, why does anyone need to get married or have sex?

Being IN love and loving someone are two completly different things. People love their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters etc. Yet people are in love with their lovers.

What child who is victim to divorce doesn't?

I agree. But persecuting against certain groups will not help the world to be any better.

Hitler actually wanted the Germans to get a better deal in life. He blamed the Jews for the bad shtuffs because they signed the Versaille treaty and thats why. He didn't really want all blue eyes and all blonde hair, just purity in the gene pool. Still, he helped Germany with unemployment.

I got one, Is Jessica Lynch(or lych?) the POW who was captured by Iraqi's and then rescued a hero? All she did was sit on her ass.

You still don't understand the concept love the sinner hate the sin. A person who kills in self defense is not sent to hell for protecting his or her own life. They commited murder, sure, but they do not continue to commit murder and did not enjoy it. They repent and therefore are saved.

Christians should never turn their back on a fellow human being. Sometimes it is hard to accept what others do, but we need to give everyone a chance. In fact, the more "evil" a person is, the more you should try to help them. It is hard but it is what should be done. Some people just won't let you help them and that is the only case when you it is okay to stop trying to help them.

Another way of putting it. There is right and there is wrong. There is good and there is bad. When I am not sure about something, that doesn't change the fact that there is still black and white. Not understanding something, and it not existing are two different things. So when I do come upon a "grey" area, I try to learn more and trust that God took this into consideration before hand and deals with the situation justly.

We should teach them to understand, not accept. Whether or not they chose to accept is their own choice once they understand. Never should they "turn all nasty on them".

By my logic you need sex to procreate and continue the survival of the species. I think my logic is good logic. And like I said before, I believe marriage is required before a couple ingages in mating.


I really have nothing more to say and I think we both know this debate has reached a dead end. I respect you for standing up for what you believe in, even if you are wrong, and I hope you feel the same way about me.

Oh, and thanks for the support Grig. I don't know you that well but it's nice to know I'm not alone.

1) She wasn't a POW
2) She wasn't captured
3) She wasn't rescured.

She was being medically treat for injuries she sustained through the crashing of her vehicle. If it wasn't for the Iraqi Doctors she would have surely died. The troops who went in, had the keys and had the permission from the Iraqi hospital to enter. The Iraqi Doctors were not torturing her, but being nice and looking after her well.

America decided it best to lie about all of the above. Why? Because Bush is a wanker. The Iraqi Doctors who rescued and treat Mz Lynch should have been applauded and thanked. What did America do? Condemn them and claimed they were torturing her.

Anyway, your post before you edited it was a good one...why did you change it to that?

This may be out of context, but does the same go for other races? And genders?

Artificial insemination. Cloning etc. Also, i meant recreational sex.

Anyway, changing topics, what are your opinions on...erm...surgery? Cosmetic surgery. Enhancements and such like. Or de-hancments. Or suction...and so on...

then what religion is the so-called- 10 humans left over then?

Plus, how do you know? For what I've heard, more people in this world is starting become either muslim or christian.

I suppose so. But obviously my opinion is that all races were created equal since they all came from Adam and Eve. I also believe that men and women are equal, but also very different. Neither is better, they just play different roles.

I wonder what Adam and Eve looked like? Were they different "races" or some supper race? Did they have belly buttons?

Also, I meant natural reproduction.


What do you mean about surgery? It really depends on what is being done, and the reason it is being done.

Cosmetic surgery...to improve one's looks...

In that case, it depends on why the person is getting the surgery. Most of the time it is for selfish reasons, to look better so that others will treat them differently. It seems very vain to me. It is okay to be comfortable with what you look like, and if you need to change your appearance for some reason it is probably because you have low self-esteem. Or maybe you just genuinely would like to look a different way because you think it would look cool.

I don't really think there is anything condemning about cosmetic surgery, but I don't think anybody needs it. Seems like a waste of money. Its just your physical body.

what you said about a man leaving his wife and kids for lust has absolutely nothing to do with being gay. That happens every day to straight people. You do not win the 100 dollars. Far from it. That is a personal thing. It is a reflection of personality. Not a reflection of sexual preference. Plus if society didn't make gays feel like such pariahs they probably wouldn't marry women in the first place. I like people for their personality. Not what they like to do in bed. I have met many gay people that I have found absolutely obnoxious. Sorry people. You are not each and every one of you a freakin' diva. That is a personality problem. I have also met thousands of straight people who are obnoxious to the tenth degree. You are not a g if you live in a twohundredthousand dollar home. Sorry playa. It is a persons PERSONALITY that makes them a good or bad person. By the way, do you think that I have said personality enough? Also you mentioned drug users. I was a heroin addict for two years. I weighed 120 pounds. Guess what? I never robbed or killed anyone. Amazing isn't it? This is not a war on drugs. It is a war on personal freedom. I should be able to make my own decisions. Bad or not. Also putting someone in jail for being high is ridiculous. drug abuse is a sickness. Would you punish someone with lung cancer? would you? WOULD YOU? I'm done now.

Now we keep going around in circles talking about homosexuality, both sides defending their own beliefs...not either side REALLY willing to be open minded...even though they say they are. I admit it, I'm not open minded to homosexuality at all. I do have some friends that are homosexual, but as I've said in the past, I don't agree, but that doesn't mean they're bad people. I like Jacob...he cracks me up every time I read a post of his! :lol:

Our manner of debating about homosexuality reminds me of a child's storybook called, "If you give a mouse a cookie," in which a mouse asks a young boy for a cookie. The boy gets it, but the mouse then asks the boy for a glass of milk. The story continues as the mouse keeps asking for things and the boy keeps delivering until the mouse asks for another cookie and the story ends with the mouse asking for another glass of milk, leaving us with the impression thatt the process will go on forever! I do feel that Jacob and others keep asking questions and sending the whole topic around in circles forever! Nobody is willing to get a different opinion, so what is the point I ask you? You decide.

Okay I'm away one day and all this is posted? I hate to say this but this debate is actually turning lame. Stop posting so big! Can't we have some short "Shutup you doodoo heads!"?
No?
Oh well, I tried.

Shutup you doodoo heads! :rant:
That better? :D

Yeah, the posts are too long!!!:( Anyway, so, where are we getting to with this discussion? Oddguy is right, stop asking for MILK!!! I think that we answered all your questions, so I think that I'm done, unless I feel like posting about it!

"Shutup you doodoo heads!"

YEAH!!!

Pinky, Christianity has the highest conversion rate. Not the highest amount of people in the religion. You have to remember that there are 6 Billion humans on Earth, and that a large chunk of them live in countries where religions are not taught to people.

-----------------------------------------

I frown upon any type of denomination more so than the prehistoric Catholicism. I will admit that Catholicism is the true Christian religion. Any denominations were started out of greed. One perfect example is the Lower Church of England.

Science is quickly catching up to religion, and beliefs of religion are being found to be false. What will happen when science over takes religion, and everything the Bible speaks of has been found to be totally false?

SeaRex summed it up perfectly, it's God's fault for creating homosexuals that way. If he doesn't wish to accept them into Heaven, he can't be called all forgiving. Especially it was him that created them. Or, was it the Devil? You can't exactly call that their fault either.

Alcar...

I started the thing on Homesexuality to actually make this thread into a rather intresting debate on wether its right or wrong. And as we can see the expierment was a success. Now to the point and to finnish off this debate and go onto another good one.

The reason I bring this up is to see what ethics people play in society. In the case of being gay and not truely loveing your partner and haveing a lust for sex or money like gay stripers or drag queens then in the view God and all rightousness, that is wrong. Its a sin to do that. Now in the sense of loveing that partner and commiting yourself to that partner and truely loveing him or her, then in the view of God that is whats right. Its not the fact that your gay your going to hell its the fact that some people would make that as a game to hurt others in the sense of greed and wanting only sex those people would go to hell. In the case of being gay and not commiting yourself to that partner and only wanting the sex is whats wrong and is whats peverted. But its alright to be gay in the sense of truely starting a family and being commited to your partner just as much as being streight. The issue here is not wether your streight or gay, the issue is wether you think its right to be hurtful, greedy, lustful with wanting only sex and money. Thats whats wrong and thats what we were trying to point out.

Now onto the next debate and this is a more civil one. Do you think human cloneing and anti ageing is right for society? For me it all depends on the ethical point of view of the situation. If a child of a family dies and that parent wants to clone his or her child then I think it is unethical. What good could a clone be for society? It is not right for mankind to clone people because there is a serious danger there like terrorist getting ahold of the technology.