If it was not a game (in which gameplay is a particular concern) then I expect there would be no chanting or rescuing on the way out. There are things called acceptable breaks from reality, reality in this case being pure fiction. They differ with the medium.

The real problem that I have with gradual accumulation of special abilities is that you hardly get to use the late ones at all, and they're always the coolest. That's why I like games that let you replay the whole thing with all your unlocks from the start. A nuclear rocket launcher is cool, but limited to the last level applications are limited.

In summary: introducing Abe's nuclear rocket launcher.

So Shrykull in RF1 then?

I guess what they could do is make it so that if you complete the game with perfect quarma, you always have the option to use all of the abilities from the beginning.

Or they could stick with the original idea: the game does not tell you how to chant until you reach Monsaic Lines.

New ending: it was all a dream, Abe is actually a holiday maker snoozing on an aeroplane and all of his kids are horrid.

Abe said: "I thought I had a good job", and he was the employee of the year. Maybe he thought he had no reason to leave...

This is what I always thought.

It's not made very clear though. It's not a huge plot hole either, just something that comes to mind when thinking about the chanting thing.

Abe says at the beginning “I thought I had a good job”, implying he was happy with his lot in life and had no real reason to break out.

There are no tips, pointers or tutorials that teach the player to chant. It’s subtle, but this implies Abe always had the latent ability but was never taught to use it. The first in-game tutorial for chanting appears in the Monsaic Lines, so we can say that this is where he learns how to use this ability.

So we have plot-related and gameplay-related justifications for his not using possession to break out in the past.

People (I started quoting posts, but there were too many) seem to be associating chanting only with possession, thus forgetting that it's a skill also needed for rescuing muds. In the game universe, it appears that Abe knew how to use chanting to open bird portals from the beginning, but only learned how to possess sligs in the Monsaic Lines. That we are able to possess sligs is a bonus, but in my mind not canonical.

Here is my ideal structure of the plot of AO: the first level in Rupturegarms and the Stockyards Escape would simply be platforming and sneaking areas focussed on Abe's Escape (Stockyards Escape is already like that, if you ignore the secret areas). Whilst in Monsaic Lines, Abe learns how to chant and realises (via RF outposts/secret areas) that it can be used both to help muds escape and to possess sligs. Going on from that, in his travels Abe becomes aware of his destiny and thus he decides to return to Rupturefarms and save Muds.

I think this would be good both from a plot perspective and in terms of a gradual growth of gameplay and ability. The only thing that would need to be changed in the first few levels would be getting rid of the secret areas, as Abe doesn't actually need to free any of the Muds to escape. However, either the Return to Rupturefarms would need to be expanded or the number of Muds overall would need to be reduced. I'm fine either way.

They're not close to each other. Bigface mystically teleported Abe. And don't mention the map; it's been proved incorrect often enough that we really can't count it as canon.

While I agree with most of what you’re saying, I don’t think that the Mudokons and secret areas from the early areas of the game need to be removed.

The secret areas are secret, and will most likely be missed by players the first time through. Keeping that around for a second, “perfect” run adds replayability and some extra depth to the gameplay for dedicated players.

As for the Muds encountered on the regular path, keeping them around but not making it necessary to interact with or rescue them would be very similar to how the original game worked (I can’t think of any single Mud in Zulag 1 that must be rescued), would add some believability to the world (otherwise why is Zulag 1 entirely devoid of Mudokons?), and introduces them as a gameplay element early on (so players can get introduced to them and have a rough idea of how to interact with them/how other characters and hazards interact with them).

Basically, keep secret areas around for seasoned players, and keep the Zulag 1 Muds around but don’t make it mandatory to rescue them.

Bear in mind that a) Until you mentioned this idea a couple of months back, it had never been mentioned on the Forums and b) it clearly didn't occur to the people who made Abe's Oddysee and the Oddworld Map that Big Face teleported him.

EDIT: Also, c) Why would Big Face stumble across Abe if he hadn't just landed outside Monsaic Lines?

That would keep the game more or less exactly as it was. I was saying that Abe should not be able to chant before Monsaic Lines.

At the very least, I don't think that the in-game instructions should refer to saving muds.

(a) How else do you explain the mystical light surrounding them?
(b) The people who made the Map didn't consider a lot of factors. As for the dev team of AO, have they explicitly stated anywhere that Monsaic Lines is right next door to the Stockyards?
(c) Because he's Big Face and Abe is a figure foretold in prophecy. He'd have been watching his progress for a while.

(a) Maybe it's a mystical light.
(b) What other factors present in the games (not interviews) aren't accurately represented on the map, in your eyes? No, they haven't explicitly stated as much.
(c) That's the trouble with your idea. You keep needing to add more and more unseen details to make it make sense. If Big Face was certain Abe was the blue Mudokon foretold in prophecy, why bother waiting for him to escape RuptureFarms?

I agree with what Glitch has said about not limiting Abe's abilities too much for the first part of the game, but on the whole I don't really think a lack of chanting would require the game to be changed that much. In fact, it might force players to use grenades, bombs, grinders and levers, adding to the tutorial element whilst maybe making the game a little harder :D

With regards to the mudokons in zulag 1 not being rescued on the way out, bear in mind that to free all 99, you need to retread most of zulag 1 for the secret areas after breaking back into RF. It wouldn't be too great a change to have all of the original muds still there for rescuing when you return.

Like people have said, this is a new game being built from the ground up- things don't have to be exactly the same! I guess it comes down to weighing up the pros and cons. On one hand, we get (in my opinion) a more logical and immersive story of Abe's journey, on the other a few tweaks would be made to slig and mudokon placements (might be underestimating the level of change needed there!)

I've always liked the idea that Abe has a natural aptitude for spiritual powers and chanting, but still feel its a bit of a stretch to assume he discovered these abilities in RF where he would have no idea what mudokons are capable of.

Him learning to chant/possess in Monsaic lines would sit nicely with this- I always got the impression that the ability to chant and open bird portals is something that would normally take muds years to perfect, and possessing creatures is a highly advanced and rare ability (hence why the other muds cannot open portals and rescue themselves/each other- never directly explained actually!).

Big Face would teach Abe his spiritual heritage, and discover that (due to his aptitude) he is an incredibly fast learner and able to do in a day or so what would take others years. This would help further show Abe's significance and special status with respect to his prophecy. It would even tie in nicely with Abe's ability to later possess scrabs and paramites in AE.

Maybe.... Abe could be able to open bird portals but not possess in the beginning, he would have to slap sligs instead.

I always got the impression that Abe was transported to Monsaic Lines as well, or that his coming to and seeing Monsaic Lines right behind him was more representative of his journey to the sanctum.

This is entirely my own interpretation, but I felt like Monsaic Lines had that Moving Island/Bermuda Triangle thing going on, in which it's a mystical place with no one true location, and many wayward souls may find themselves there without actually knowing where they are. That, in my mind, explains the few Slig stragglers that wound up there and set up camp, and how it just happened to be where Abe landed after his tumble down the cliff side.

Bermuda Triangle: Latitude/Longitude : 32° 20'N, 64° 45'W

In Lorne doing the voices again? We've already mentioned having different phrases for the same instructions, but perhaps they could change with the story. In AE Abe's voice changed which his quarma, depressed/happy with your rescue/kill count. In AOHD any rescuing of muds on the way out should be in a fearful, whispered voice, "come on! We gotta get out of here!" Then when he comes back, he can be more confident about it. "Come with me if you want to live." Except be something that won't get complaints from these ^ guys.

You worded your question wrong. It should be "Will Lorne be doing the voices this time?".

Is Wil in Lorne doing the voices again?

It already works well in the original game. The same level structures don’t have to be kept, but the general setup of the original progression—of having all the controls and abilities available but not informing the player of them—was one that worked, and doesn’t need to be drastically altered for the sake of plot consistency.


That’s kind of how it is already – a Story Stone in Monsaic Lines gives the first indication that you should be saving Mudokons, if I remember rightly.

I've got a question that may be food for thought for the "chanting from the start of the game" debate:

Who here played through the game the first time, and thought that Abe having the ability to chant and possess Sligs from the very start didn't make sense? It'd make more sense from a storyline perspective, sure, but as a gameplay standpoint, that would mean changing a part of what was good about the first half of the game. It's as Glitch asks - Who would this change be made for? And as Wil says - Why hasn't anyone brought this up until now?

I suppose it'd make you (as Abe) feel a bit more vulnerable during the first half of the game, which could make some interesting gameplay situations, but it would still mean changing a lot and re-thinking many of the puzzles which would make Abe HD stray incredibly far from the original game.

I guess that begs the question: Should Abe HD be a one on one copy of the original in terms of level design? I'm sure that question has been thrown around the JAW office, though. And if it hasn't, shame on you all.

^ And that's a good question.

You know what I meant, chubby.

it is indeed a question that has been asked, and its one with an answer. However, the degree of change is important. changing puzzles a layout is one thing, but changing character and story progression, then changing the levels to support those changes, as well changes required by the 2.5d rendering and scrolling, all adds up to a game that is distancing itself further and further away from the original.

I don't think that is something we should be doing.

The chanting is a concern, and if it was to be supported by the narrative more, I don't think altering the first 30-40 minutes of the game is worth it. I've got a couple of ideas but they all smell of scaffolding; supporting structures, for this case they would be supporting something that doesn't feel like it needs it until you really dig at it.

The only solution that sits well with me is the addition of a new area before the warehouse that acted as a real tutorial as well as somehow outlining the possessions origin.

Fine. Just give Abe a clearer backstory and we can all go home.

I am home.

If you're going to add a new area for tutorials make it at least optional. Pretty self explanatory really.