I said essentially, not exactly ;)

I still don't know what makes you say redoing 2D doesn't make much sense - take a look for example on Monkey Island 2 Special Edition: http://www.videogameszone.de/screens..._edition_3.jpg

2D does provide incredible detail support, spectacular light effects and animated elements of background etc. And requires less effort than doing 2.5D which, let's face it, wouldn't look as nice (and/or work smoothly) as prerendered 3D graphics. You'd be able to create game which looks good and still is really close to original...

...without huge system requirements

Clearly the only solution is CryEngine.

@Varrok, going with a 2D engine would result in the game being very close to the original, which I’m guessing isn’t what the team wants to do.

2.5D, if done well, can have a much greater scope than 2D graphics in terms of depth, dimension and weight.

It would also mean the graphics wouldn’t end up being upscaled to a ridiculous degree in 10 years time, as is normal for AO/AE today.

I think Lucasarts did that because the Scumm engine supported bigger image formats, therefore they didn't have to rebuild anything.

You're assuming that we're going to be building some mental, unscalable beast of a game that needs 14 gpus and a psu the size of Bournemouth in order the run it. In reality we're going to make the best game we can that will run on as many systems as realistically possible.

While we're on the subject of performance, I should point out that the fill rate of a PS3 isn't particularly good, where as the vertex buffers are very good. So we would be in a situation where building a nice looking 3D (ostensibly 2.5D) game would actually be better than a full 2D game. Further more, with 3D environments the world can be made much more lush, interactive, dynamic, and scalable.

@Varrok - I disagree. 3D graphics can work just as well as, if not better than pre-rendered 2D sprites - It depends how well the graphics, riggings and animations are done. Also you'll be adding extra work since every 2D spite would have to be rendered and set out as sequences... For smooth animation you'd have to have tons and tons of sprites. Some of the animation for the original Abe games wasn't entirely smooth for this reason.

As well as what OddHunter said, 2.5D also should also give a lot more freedom for game development. Go and play Little Big Planet (which is the prime example of a decent 2.5 D game) if you want to see how well it can work.

EDIT: Sniped by Glitch. All well he explained it better than me anyway.

Sonic Generations has some great uses of 2.5D, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vO_Hlr-YJw

2D paths which aren’t just straight lines, obstacles that move in 3 dimensions that cross the main path, multiple paths that exist at different depths, full 3D backgrounds and foregrounds, dynamic camera angles.

@Glitch .. all the different images of Abe are actually different (I think they are anyway). Which image are you aiming to replicate for the new games?

What I mean is that there is a distinct difference in Abe's appearance in Abe's Oddysee, Abe's Exoddus and Munch's Oddysee. Am I wrong? I might be wrong.. but the Abe face on the Oddysee cover looks long and sort of youthful, on the Exoddus cover he's all wrinkly with sagging cheak skin and a receding jaw. In Munch's Oddysee, his head looks like a peanut (In my eyes anyway, dunno about everyone elses)... Which look do you personally think is the true representation?

Correct me if this is all bullshit ^^

We're looking to replicate everything as closely as possible. There are some point where this may not be possible, but in such situations we will be trying to replicate the feel and look as best we can.

In terms of Abe, I would personally say Exoddus? I think he's pretty similar in all of them. Saying that I do quite like how he looks in the munch cinematics

In that case, the game wouldn't look better than original backgrounds rendered by SGI, since most computers still cannot render such detailed scenes in real-time... if you ask me, doing a remake which looks uglier than original makes even less sense : o

BTW I don't think Lucas used just SCUMM engine, the file structure looks completely different, there are original unmodified archived MI1/MI2 files inside... I don't know, but I think the new engine is made from scratch to be compatible with normal SCUMM... would SCUMM handle animations and lightning like in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FPD2SJonwA (2:50)?

Have you seen the background renders for Abe's Oddysee? Do you honestly think that the pre rendered stuff in that can't be done with realtime rendering now? That's simply not true.

Is Abe still going to be powder blue, or will you be omitting the color-coding now that the graphics are being improved?

more likely the accepted canon colours of Abe.

I now see why most developers don't post too much information about the behind the scenes stuff. It's disheartening to hear how much they don't know what they're doing.

I seriously doubt the same level of detail as in some of the original backgrounds can be rendered in real-time, even by today's standards.

How were the backgrounds in AO made in the first place? Because I was told by someone that a lot of them were hand made, as it were, in Photoshop and stuff. Not pre-rendered 3D scenes.

This

You guys faith in JAW is simply amazing, isn't it?

When there's a will, there's a way - 3D backgrounds can look just as amazing if done properly, without using tons of processing power.

Doesn't mean the result won't be good - I didn't really know what I was doing with that Minecraft Machinima I made and it came out really well. Where do you get that impression from anyway?

Blame me for being a realist : o I honestly think that wouldn't work

People have too little faith in 2.5D it seems. Or some people do.

Frankly I'm certain 2.5D is the best way to go. The model I'm thinking of is MK9; if one takes a moment to look at the backgrounds of the stages in that game, it has very respectable levels of detail, and 3D environments can be used to create far more atmospheric lighting effects and such.

I'm fairly sure if 2.5D is used correctly, and nothing is overlooked, the end result will be appropriately stunning.

Every single screen was made from a pre-rendered environment then touched up in Photoshop. The first bit gives the backgrounds their weighty, physical geometry. The second bit gives them their detail, both grime and polish.

It's a trade-off. Realtime requires lower polycounts and modular assets, but nothing that can't be made beautiful with AA, shaders and clever design. Conversely you get parallax, dynamic lighting, smooth scrolling, animation… If you want the most seamless, plausible and inhabited environments in the game (which we do), 3D is the only sensible choice.

I'm just being realistic. Aside from there being a question if it's possible, why would you want to render backgrounds in real-time when the original system worked perfectly. It just opens a lot of holes for errors, artifacts, misrenders and stuff like that. And it raises the system specs quite a bit while you can keep them low by just using pre-rendered scenes.

Max posted: Oh right you want to do the continues scrolling thing? Away with the individual screens? Then yeah I suppose that is the only way to go.

I don't think we're planning on releasing something with errors, artefacts or misrenders. I may be mistaken.

First version of SW PC port. And MO PC port.

Well how the hell else would you 2.5d? Each screen would be little more than a diorama otherwise.

@Varrok - Those are totally different things.

Dunno, just can't imagine an Oddworld sidescroller without the screens :p

I wasn't part of the company then, but I don't think anyone expected ATI to be so shit at rendering OpenGL, especially since ATI claim they do, but I'll grant you that one. JAW just plain didn't port MO PC.

There’s also bound to be performance issues when porting ~5 year-old games built for one console, compared to building a brand new game designed for multiple platforms.

And elaborating further now @Varrok I have more time: The PC ports of MO and SW were ports and weren't originally made to run on the PC. The MO port wasn't even JAW's work. Abe HD will be made from the ground up to be designed to run on PC and PS3.

well making the screens in 3d and leaving them in real time is better then pre rendered.You can still make the screens in some way,but if they make pre rendered whats the point of making the game then if its going to be the same way it was created years ago....

Just pointing out that the original AO and AE won't vanish off of the face of the Earth when Abe HD gets released. They will look different, but you can always just play the original if you like the look of that more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmFJHfsvPG0 Do backgrounds like this game did. Beautiful and immersive, which is actually how AO and AE backgrounds were. For their time at least...

To be honest I fear that doing it in realtime will mean that the quality will take a step backward instead of forward. It's going to be very hard to top the original backgrounds and I've rarely, if never, seen realtime graphics that looked as good as the AO backgrounds.

Hmm good point you've got there,but we will see how it works around,as i know lua is mod friendly so someone might get hd textures to make em look even better.

The old backgrounds are 640 × 240. We really can't go backwards in quality. Also remember that we have all the original models, textures, sets and cameras to work with, plus of course complete familiarity with the atmosphere and tone of the final product, and the strong desire to replicate it all faithfully to honour the game we love.

I second the Trine example.

Having all these would be soooo awesome, with PLE 0.7... Woohoo ! Countless mods and hacks :fuzblink:

who is JAW? How many people are working for them? do you have an office?

Oh, if Abe HD is going to be a side-scroller then 2.5D makes perfect sense. I assumed it would use screens - in which case 2.5 would be completely pointless.

I realy don't see why you guys doubt that a current engine correctly configured and polished can't give a rendering that is better then what they used back in 1997.

I've played through AO recently, and, with my game developing hat on, can tell you that modern rendering engines can make backgrounds as nice, if not nicer than the vast majority of the backgrounds that can be seen in AO. Normal maps weren't even in use by 1997!

It's okay if you don't believe me.