I am not saying rioters have an excuse to riot.

Neither am I saying I sympathize with anyone who loots, or steals and assaults innocent people.

Here is what I am saying, quite clearly.

Where there is smoke there's fire.

We are an unhappy country.

We are human beings.

We riot.

Simple as that.

Haha, it's funny because you're eating their "tough on crime" bullshit hook line and sinker.

Speak for yourself? I don't know about you, but I don't consider myself among the idiotic, ungrateful few who have chosen to vandalise their own surroundings because they don't know how lucky they really are to live here. The rioters are just ignorant pricks who don't have the first clue about the world around them, and are just following like lemmings so they can feel like they're part of something big and clever, and make a quick bit of easy cash on the way, not because they're fundamentally unhappy with how the country is run.

Besides, they've got nothing to complain about. They're everything that's wrong with the country in the first place.

of course you don't. i think by 'we', WoF meant people. not himself, or you, or your next door neighbour, but people. an average person on their own is likely to possess common sense and logic. a group of people are likely to be stupid, rash and fucking dangerous.

i wouldn't count myself among those that rioted, either. i don't think many people would. but that doesn't mean that some of them wouldn't be tempted to join in anyway for whatever reason, when it was right outside their front door. no matter how unjust, brutal or pointless their actions may be, people still influence and tempt those around them without even knowing it. the more the merrier, safety in numbers, three voices are louder than one, etc.

and if we could somehow 'remove' these people from society, do you really think that over time no one would take their place? to say that these people are everything that's wrong with the country is pretty peripheral and just plain fucking stupid.

like WoF said, there's no smoke without fire.

The people taking part in these riots are the same kind of people who:

- Probably make up the largest part of the crime rates in the country,
- By their choice or not, take much-needed money from the government,
- Raise further generations who will probably continue the same lifestyle,
- Contribute nearly nothing to the economy,

Et cetera. Put it this way. The rioters are people who have no jobs, take money from the government, and are proving that they're criminals as we speak. Even if they're not everything that's wrong with the country, they represent a good deal of it. Compare what they contribute to what they take away. What, therefore, is the benefit of them even existing?

I didn't say that their place wouldn't be taken over by more in the future if they were removed. Which is depressing, really. It's probably their numerous kids who'll take their place.

Now, Goresplatter, precede all those dot points with 'Why?'. Why do they make up the largest part of the crime rates in the country? Why do they take much needed money from the government (rather than work in reliable employment)? Etc.

Find the answers to those questions, solve the problems and you'll have solved the whole country's problems far more successfully than by getting rid of the people.

Jobs are a supply and demand type thing.

If all these people were removed from society less shit would be bought which would lead to more people being made redundant. It's sort of like how immigrants steal people jobs but make more jobs at the same time, in reverse.

So let's blame the industrial revolution and cheap Chinese labour.

There are still jobs in the UK but they are jobs no one wants to do or they are jobs that don't pay enough to make coming off the dole justifiable (although morally it's the right thing to do) so the system needs a shake up, change the entire benefits scheme, and if there's *any* free job in your area, it is compulsory you at least try for it. Then the criminals would have something to occupy their minds other than 'what might we steal tonight?'

But this isn't stealing, this is rioting.

Yes, clearly these people do all of this by choice specifically to bring down the country, at their own detriment.

No it's not rioting, I already put my viewpoint forward they they weren't rioting, they were looting.

I understand what you mean. You mean it was all mindless crap. It was actually driven by something initially. Then it became a looting bandwagon of sorts, I suppose.

People say this all the time, but there sure as hell wasn't a 'Now Hiring' sign at McDonalds when I last walked past it.

Who says working at McDonalds is a bad job that no one wants to do? It's above minimum wage and although it isn't very stimulating it's far better than nothing. People need to lower their standards a bit. Was it Bill Gates who said something along the lines of, 'To our grandparents, working at McDonalds was a job'.

As opposed to what it is now?

It's hard for us all to say "Well somebody's got to do it" when society is all about that drive to do something better than having to fill skilless, menial roles an automaton could perform.

Well if you didn't pay attention at school, got into fights with teachers, looted shops and did time in jail, you're lucky if you get a job and quite frankly you don't deserve it any way.

I'm pretty sure that I included in that post 'by their choice or not'.

Who says it's at their detriment? They get free money and save some by application of petty theft. And they also get to pretend they have some power by attacking people in the streets. It's not like it's a terribly hard life to lead, sponging government money and doing fuck all else.

Note that you only applied it to one point.


You seem to believe that these people are ruining the country, yet you don't believe ruining the country they leave in will negatively affect them.

Yes, all lower-class folk are spongers and thieves, and have no aspirations of a better life.

Yes of course, an entire class of people are all about power displays and egotism. Crime is entirely about asserting fear and power.

pfffthahaha

But in all seriousness, please go back to the Conservative party forums, they're missing you.

Again, like I said: This is the easiest thing in the world for a student who never plans to work at McDonalds or anywhere else like that to say.

But, and more importantly, I have a friend in Glasgow, the second biggest city in the UK who is on jobseekers. He's tried to get a job at McDonalds several times. They're not hiring.

Rehashing cliches isn't going to get you away from the fact There. Is. No, Jobs.

I would work at McDonalds part time if I could so I can afford University, I'm looking to get a job at TESCO's and that's a similar stereotyped job (a la shit). There are jobs but generally you need skills, i.e. there aren't enough good plumbers right now for example. You need to look for jobs really deeply if you want to find them.

You said two points there - A. You need skills for a job and B. You need to look deeply. You could look as deeply as possible and would probably still find jobs that need a high level of skill. There are people that hunt through every source they can possibly find, and regularly at that, and they are not finding jobs. Stop making excuses, it is a known fact that this country has very limited jobs at the moment. Anyone I speak to who is unemployed and who is looking for a job will say there aren't any available for them. My dad and my sister are unable to find them and they look very regularly. People who I know from school look for jobs and cannot find any. There are no jobs.

The only stereotype I'm aware of with Tesco's is that you apply and never hear from them again.

For the last three years in a row I've applied to Asda, Tesco's and Saibsbury's when I've been back for the summer. Too many people, too little jobs.

=( Well I hope you find a job soon.

I'm not saying there are lots of jobs available, just that there are some jobs. But you are right, nowhere near enough. Which is an argument for why immigration needs to be stopped.

nice speculation! also, did you know i'm probably a millionaire porn star with a twelve inch penis? it's probably true!

you're probably some middle-class fuck that has no idea what you're talking about, and i reckon that statement holds more merit than yours.

so really, you only have two qualifying points in your little list, and even those are not as simple as you make them out to be. different people and different situations can't just be lumped into separate categories. this isn't a game, this is life, and these are peoples lives. take off your black & white goggles and see the shit that we are in.

you really aren't listening. you know that phrase "there's no smoke without fire" that's already been said twice? to you? how about you read it, or look up it's definition, or just simply acknowledge it, because it keeps being said and you just keep plowing on through it, pretending it isn't there. it isn't the phrase of the day, there is an actual reason why it's being sung like a broken record player.

there's no effect if there's no cause. basically, something sparked this whole fiasco, and it escalated. when a person is unhappy, they will only take so much shit before they bite back. change that one unhappy person to a portion of a pissed off nation, and of course things are gonna fuck up royally. but why were they unhappy in the first place? why did it get to the point where they stepped outside the law? yeah, some people joined in for pathetic reasons and took advantage of the situation, but that's herd behaviour. it doesn't excuse their crimes, but it doesn't mean they are totally to blame for this grand shit storm either. open your eyes.

clearly an extermination is in order. we must rid this once fair country of these vermin so we can once more live in harmony on our utopian isle.

well look at that. he plowed straight through this, too.

'the criminals'? believe it or not there aren't men in black capes twiddling their moustaches, plotting their next evil deed in underground lairs. everything everyone does, both good and bad, has a reason. good reasons, bad reasons, nonsensical reasons and just plain fucking pathetic reasons, but they're all reasons. stealing seems to revolve around money, the acquisition of something that would otherwise be impossible to get, or lack of time.

give them all jobs? that'll sort it. hang on, i left them here a second ago where the fuck are they all?

here's a job. wait, you did time? fuck you, give it back. oh no! people are rioting, looting and breaking the law in general! give them all jobs, quick. wait, you rioted, looted and broke the law in general? fuck you, give it back. oh no! ET CETERA

although there aren't many jobs to hand out at the moment, anyway.

sure ain't. putting food on the table, clothing your family and trying to stay afloat with the gas, electricity and water bills alongside your rent/mortgage, not to mention keeping your home livable by hiring out plumbers, electricians, locksmiths, plasterers and so on to fix and replace certain elements, unless you have insurance which, of course, you have to pay for too. got a car? well don't forget car insurance, road tax, regular MOT tests, fuel which just keeps rising and rising in price, and breakdown cover might be a good idea. oh, and that £40 computer game your kids have been bugging you for.

that's family life, no exaggeration. if anything, i've left a lot of stuff out. so yeah, it must be a grand life not having a job and getting by on government money, juggling your bills and deciding which ones you think you can get away with not paying for this week, just so you can keep your head above water. driving a car with an expired tax disc and desperate for an MOT, but not yet because you simply can't afford it. maybe next week. or the week after. you just hope to god you don't get pulled over by the police.

it happens as easy as that, you judgemental piece of shit.

Here's a relevant news article: http://gu.com/p/3xa7v
Riot-hit London boroughs among worst unemployment blackspots

I work at Halfords. It's not that much more dignified and I hate it, but it's still a job so I hold on to it. And I found it all by myself.

Hey, guess what? People who have jobs have to pay for all that stuff too, except the taxes are higher 'cause you have to pay for the ones who haven't.

I also have to maintain a car, and yes it is damned expensive, so don't think I don't know about these things. Beside the point, as the primary uses for my car are taking me to work and taking me to Uni. I don't get why someone unemployed needs a car so damned much in the first place.

And also, my dad got made redundant at the start of the recession, and in his mid 50s and with a little intuition, has found himself employment again, without even the use of jobseekers. He did this by learning, from scratch, how to program apps for the iPhone and iPad, and inquiring permission from a web developer if he'd like his database made into an application. He accepted and the app is a success, and brings in a nice bit of money. You can't tell me that's not determination.

Hell, maybe I do sound conservative. Maybe I'm just sick of the fact that my family and I work pretty hard, and every day I hear of innocent people around my area getting robbed and stabbed to death by dole-scum. Maybe I'm sick of seeing them spending their government money on fags and 'tricking out' their cars to look like shit, and having their bodies covered in tattoos - and it's exactly these kinds of people who are taking part in the riots.

And when some fucking waster crashes their car after driving like a dickhead, turns out to be uninsured, and the other poor sod gets fucked. I just don't think I've met more than one agreeable person on the dole - maybe it's the area in which I live. And even having seen this kind of poverty a lot personally, I think these people need to open their eyes and look elsewhere in the world, so they can see what true poverty really is, and how lucky they are.

And oh yeah,

Nice one, tard. Looks like ad hominem isn't the best way to argue, surprise surprise.

Yep, that's right, every crime that has ever been committed has been committed by someone on the brew. Be it rape, murder, robbery or kidnapping. I know, maybe you should shut up?

I stopped reading at 'dole-scum'.

Not every crime. Just most of the time. I bet criminals are more often unemployed than employed. I'd look it up but I can't be bothered, so if anyone wants to take that bet, feel free to find something.

Oh wait, I forgot that all rapists, murderers, robbers and kidnappers are in managerial positions at your local office complex.

Just so you know, by 'dole-scum' I mean it as 'a scumbag who happens to be on the dole', not as an all-encompassing term which includes perfectly respectable people who are just in unfortunate circumstances.

It's just unfortunate there's no statistics available on the ratio of people who genuinely can't get jobs against the number who fake looking just so they can claim. Or have undeclared jobs.