Wait a minute: you do what with tigers?

He really thinks Bush is a mass murderer, doesn't he? Granted Bush is not a good leader. He has made really big and stupid mistakes but he is not commiting genocide you stupid shit. He and a group of our allies took a mass murderer out of power and no matter how you cut it that is a good thing. It was not gone about in a professional manner and the whole fucking thing has been a huge mess but last time I checked being an incompetent douchebag wasn't a crime. You are just so full of your moronic bush and America hatred that you will ignore the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who killed tens of thousands of his own people. So fuck your stupid face until you actualy grow a thought of your own instead of just jumping on the America sucks bandwagon.

I have thoughts of my own, Mr, OANST. And the simple FACT is that there have died a few THOUSAND people while he was in office. Be it on 9/11 or in Iraq. Be it military troops on either side or civilians. And yes I should have include Saddam in that list, my bad, I edited it. Okay? But I live by the principle of having my own opinion by checking stuff out before I form my opinion, so don't tell me I'm jumping on bandwagons because I hate bandwagons!

Bullet Magnet: Use your imagination...

Mr. Havoc, if you understood what the Bible says a little better, then you would know that it is not contradicting. Only a few parts are, such as "an eye for an eye," but later on, in the new testimant half of it, Jesus states that a man must forgive the person that did whatever wrong to them, and try to teach them what they did wrong. And since Jesus is part of God (in what I believe,) his word goes.
God does not say that you can't have sex, as it is a necessary part of life to reproduce. He says that making out with an animal is wrong because for 1) there is no gain in doing so, other than sexual satisfacation. and 2) that's just nasty. He doesn't say gay people will burn in hell wither, he just really doesn't want us to be gay because a marriage should between a man and a woman for the above reasons.

Also, God did not create gay people, he gave them free will to do what they wanted and they chose to be gay. he did not create them that way. Also, god does not torture people, Satan does.
You may be thinking that God should stop him from doing so, but Satan only tortures people to turn away from god and to accept him. God wants us to step away from temptation and not give into it because he can't MAKE Them, because he gave them free will.
and for the little conclusion you gave there, god isn't sadistic. People are just stupid, and wanted to die for something. Due to reasons stated earlier, he cannot stop poeple from doing this. no matter how dumb they are.

EDIT: 9/11 couldn't have been foreseen at all. Or at least stopped. it's not his fault. Bush didn't send the planes into the twin towers, and he couldn't have sent and evacuation of the whole place if he did see it. either way, many poeple are going to die.

I agree whole heartedly with Mat.

Thank you for finding me humourous.

However, there is a little problem with the following:

Next to the fact that is scientificaly proven that homosexuality is a natural thing that is triggerd by hormones, why on EARTH would you CHOOSE to be gay in a society like this?

"Hm, if I love men everyone in my street is going to hate me, God will smite me down, Satan will rape me with a large vulcanic rock and I have the risk of being killed by some angry homophobe pretty much every single day. I can't get married, if I tell me parrents I'm gay they will hate me forever and the same goes for my friends. SOUNDS FANTASTIC! I think I might do just that!"

Yea that sounds realy logical to me. People are stupid, but not that stupid. So, assuming (because of prove) that it's not a choice, but a hormone, then God put that hormone in them...

The fact that people have died doesn't mean he fucking killed them! Are you blaming 9/11 on us? Are you blaming the hijacking of a civilian aircraft and the ensuing chaos on the United States? You know what? You're right. We should begin beating our women for going barefaced in the street and kick the Jews out of Israel. That way maybe the muslim world will like us. And then maybe you will like since you won't see anyone with turbans on the television discussing how America is the great Satan. And then we can all live in peace. Right? It's that simple, isn't it? Awesome. You and I have just solved the worlds problems all by ourselves. I'm taking everyone out for ice cream. Come on, guys! The world is beautiful again!


Shut up.


Edit: I agree with you on the gay issue.

Guys, Havok, please calm down. We should'nt waste a perfectly good topic by making it a flame war on God's intentions and that Bush sucks, er, 'tiger balls'.

Gay.

I will agree with you that the Bible isn't as whacky as people put it out to be. At least not when you think outside of the box about it. But one thing I do disagree about is how people choose to be gay. Being gay or bi isn't a matter of choice at all. Think about it, is being straight a matter of choice? When, ever in your life, did you choose to be straight? You see, it's anything but a matter of choice. There are many reasons for someone being gay. Like not having a present father figure. Or if the mother was under stress during pregfnancy, causing a large rise of estrogen in the woman increasing the chances of her child being gay. And why the **** anyone want to choose to be gay? Is getting off to the male gender worth being abused by almost all sides of society? So yes, that's one spot the Bible ****ed up in.

EDIT: Ugh, beat me already.

Mitsur: Lol.

OANST: I'm not looking to start a flame war, I'm trying to have a healthy discussion but apparently some people can't do that without making a point without insulting someone else. And if the majority of the USA is like you, OANST, then I suddenly understand why someone would want to fly a plane into a set of high towers.
Simple math: If someone flies a commercial airliner into a building on purpose, it probably means that he hates your ass. So maybe America should get it's head out of it's ass and look back to see why everyone hates them so much.
And on a further note, if Hitler gets all the blame for all the jews that are killed, and Stalling for all the people he set on fire, and Saddam for all the people he gassed, then why can't I put Bush in the same row as them? He sent the biggest army in the world into a stretch of desert. HE gave the order that send over 3000 troops to their death, in my books that counts as mass murder.

Yes, and you will probably say this is not an excuse, but Bush sent those troops out in what he thought was the right thing to do. He sent them out intending to make the world a safer place. Hitle and Stalin just did it for power. Saddam was just ****ing nuts.

This could go back and forth, forever. Sorry if I'm being the devil's advocate :D

Because he sent those troops in there in the hopes of making the world a safer place. And troops are soldiers. They understand when they sign up that there is a decent possibility that they will die defending either another country or their own. And the vast majority of them feel honored to do this. You are an ignorant piece of shit who wishes to hold on to his hatred. It's so easy to point fingers but until you come up with a better solution you are nothing but a whiny piece of shit. Oh wait. You did come up with a better solution. The world should nuke America. How grand of you.

It is a hard decision for some poeple to make, but it is a decision.
For example, a person who has problems within the family is being abused a lot. the pain (both mental and physical) seems to be too much to bear. so they DECIDE to go and take alchohal and drugs to numb the pain.

Same thing with being gay. you can CHOOSE not to be. Yes Havoc, there may be hormones that make someone feel gay, but you can CHOOSE to work harder to resist the urge. Just like how people can resist the urge to whack off up in their room. Yes, I understand that God did put that hormone into men due to certain curcumstances. And I'm sure he has a reason. It may not be apparent to us at the time, but everything happens with reason. It may be something for the person, with the hormone in them, to work harder to get over and become stronger because of it.
Life is full of choices, some may not seem so blunt, but they are there. Almost everything in life is a decision. Even, and especially, religion. you may CHOOSE not to believe me, or may DECIDE that I have a point. Either way, you are choosing.

And I thought the reason I felt that urge was because I got a dry hump from a hot girl ;)

Arxryl, you have obviously spent time thinking out your position, and I commed you for that.

Unfortuantely, unless we become gay (and I will NEVER become a butt-bandit), we'll never really know why people become gay. And frankly, I don't care. I don't like gay people, because it's just stupid, but then again, it's their life.

You know what? I'm going to abandon my anger at the Havok to be angry with you. You are an idiot. You know what the highest suicide rate in the U.S. is? Homosexual Christians. Because pieces of shit like you convince them that they are evil just because they are attracted to something different than you are. It is not a decision to be attracted to someone. It's a decision to fuck someone, yes. But not who you want to fuck. Ignorant shit.

Just the white house would work, actualy. And guys, are you kidding me? We're all in Iraq right now for the OIL. Yes, oil. Saddam was a bonus, but if he managed to stay hidden for another few years, no-one would have cared anymore. I know it, you people SHOULD know it but apparently don't. Is it a proven fact? No ofcourse not, try proving that the goverment would abuse it's power for money. Ha the sheer idea is enough to make the FBI piss their pants. But the fact that the first thing out of Bush's mouth was 'Don't set the oil on fire!' already makes a good case for me.
It has nothing to do with hate. This is my opinion on how the world is working, based on the facts I see around me. And if you can't handle the truth, then good for you, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. You won't see me preaching on a crate of soap.
'Isn't that what you are doing right now?'
No, it isn't. I stated my general opinion a long while back, but somewhere in the process people started shouting that I believe whatever is said on television. I don't like that, so apparently I have to clarify every sentence of my opinion like this to get the point across. And I don't care what you do with it, whipe your ass with it for all I care. But don't call me an ignorant piece of shit that doesn't know his shit, because I know damn well what I'm talking about. Here we have facts, here we have moral. Add the two together and you get two TOTALY different opinions. The facts you see as positive, I see as negative, and vice versa. Thats how opinion works, and I'm just stating mine. I don't think that I asked you, OANST, to flame me for it or convince me to change my opinion, thank you very much.

It's late, I'm going to bed now. Try to keep this topic a bit under control. I realize I always tend to create stirr in topics like this, but don't let it get out of hand please. We can all debate about this maturely. Well, most of us.

You just basically contradicted yourself though.

Becasue there is a homosexual urge behind homosexual actions, then why would God place those urges there? And don't say to test the gay ten percent of the world population. Why those selected peoples and no one else? To be bottled up and unhappy for your entire life? And don't say it's God's way either. Because the fate of having to know you're homosexual in an antigay society isn't something that can't just be lightly passed off with the explanation the lord works in mysterious ways.

OANST, I don't want to argue with you, but you are being way to politically correct. I can say whatever I want about anything I want to talk about. It's my right, and you shouldn't get pissed at me because I don't agree with what you think. You're acting like you're perfect about all the issues in our world today. Stop acting all high and mighty about defending everything people are bad-mouthing. If you said 'I think all gamers are incompetent loser who will never get kisses from anyone from their mother', sure, I'd be pissed, because I'M a gamer, but I wouldn't rant on and on about how you don't know anything. I'd show you how your statement was wrong, with evidence I have. So stop being a asshole over people having their own view.

I never said they were evil. I said that my religion frowns upon it.
Also, you can CHOOSE not to screw another guy. No you probably can't stop yourself from liking another guy, but you CAN CHOOSE not to screw them.
Also, I never went out to anyone and said that they were evil because they were gay. not once. And I don't think that way...

And yes, used: ), I did probably contradict myself somehow. But when you say that he is only testing the gay percent of the world, your veiw is a little too narrow. Other people are tested with other things, such as drugs, family affairs, school affairs, peer pressure, and many other things.

Also as Havoc said, let's try not to flame eachother. This is an area to debate topics, not attack people.

You are so fucking stupid. You honestly believe that garbage, don't you? He told them not to burn the oil fields because the country needs to have a goddamn economy if it is ever going to be able to stand on it's own again. Whatever. You drank the kool aid. You've been inducted into the society. You're a mindless drone and your life is a fucking embarrasment. Go fuck a tiger.

As Havoc said, he is tired and we should not flame eachother. People are not up for flaming, topics are up for debate.

If you wish to stand idly by while complete morons spout lies then be my guest. I am not going to mince words or try not to hurt these jackasses feelings. That isn't being politicaly correct. And because I know more about the subject than you or she then I get to sound like I know what i'm talking about. Because I do.

He probably would, if you put him in the cage with some wine and romantic music for the mood ;)

I'm just kidding Havok. I'll make it up to you by defending you.

OANST, you're turning this into a giant fight over morals. Please, stop switching what you hate and who you hate. Havok, like me, or Arxryl, or anyone else here, deserves an opion. Like I said before, stop screaming at people for not thinking like you do. Maybe in a few years you can download your brain into CNN and sublimally make us all like you, but until that happens or the Time Police stop you before it can happen, people will think differently than you.

Just keep your mind open for other ideas instead of thinking everyone but you is wrong.

OANST, you are currently only digging yourself a hole by flaming. You may indeed be more knowlegable about the happenings of the world, but that doesn't mean we can't have our own views of the subject.

EDIT: I typed this before I read mitsurs reply.

I'm not talking ahout those people though. Just gay people. Everyone has those problems like being ridiculed at school or having a debt to pay, but those problems aren't apart of those people though. Being homosexuality is. It's a part of you. That's why it's so much harder. And there's no way to get rid of a part of yourself without going insane.

Also, kudos to you for maintaining good conversing tone. I'm glad to see this hasn't turned into a game of back and forth "**** you"s.

You do have a point. it is much harder. but they'll be that much stronger to get over their issue. Also, those people can get help from others on their situation.
But you do have a point... I imagine it is much harder.

I am defending free thought. Open your eyes and you will see that. Havoc is making comments about killing americans to make the world a safer place so I told him to shove it up his ass. This bitch is making comments about how gay people just made a bad decision and would not allow them the freedom to live how they wish. So I am telling her to shove it up her ass. And you are defending them so I will tell you to shove it up your ass. Shove it up your ass.

*award OANST the medal of honor*

Wow. I counted at least 4 'shove it up your ass' comments there. Thats gotta be a record. ;) Oh, good pun about S.I.U.Y.A and gays.

I'm not even going to bother to make a real reply back. You'll just going to shoot it down with your anger. I'm giving up, until this topic gets back on, um, topic.

Ahem... I am a guy! and right now you are flaming people. All you had to say was "I am just defending my own free thought."
Also, I'm sure that Havoc was either A) just joking like he does normally. or B) speaking in a non literal way. He may hope U.S.A falls, but I'm sure no one here is stone hearted enough to nuke a country.

If everyone could do what they wanted in a legal way, the world could possibly be in complete chaos.And I NEVER SAID that they shouldn't have freedom. I think it is morally wrong to be gay, and it's against MY religion. I'm not trying to make you believe my religion, just understand that there is a point in what I say. I don't think that they should relinquish their freedom as you think I meant.