OANST was talking about Munch's Oddysee HD which he thought had been released on PC. But it is the 1:1 port on the PC that had been getting all the negative rep.

Munch's Oddysee HD is available only for PS3, isn't it? So what's the matter with pc? I'm sorry I don't get it.

People were complaining about the Munch port on the PC. OANST thought it was the HD version and was saying that if JAW couldn't HDfy a 3D game properly how could they hope to develop one themselves. And then we corrected him in that Munch HD is only on PS3.

I know this post was a page ago, but I was asleep when it and all the other posts in this thread were made so

That's exactly it. The cartoony comicalness wasn't established until AE. AO had some comedic elements, and like most of Oddworld's humour it was kind of forced, but it wasn't so in your face it took away from the story telling. This is a remake of AO, and they said they were doing their best to capture the tone and feel of the original. My complaint is that with just the intro alone they didn't capture it at all. The comical elements were too in your face, and having the characters so highly exaggerated when the focus is meant to be on the story being told takes away the impact of the story and puts the focus on "these goofy over exaggerated characters". The narration was more like Alf telling his story at the end of AE than it was Abe looking back on the events of AO. Abe's movements and reaction to discovering New 'N' Tasty was more Looney Toons than classic Oddworld. In AO, his response to NNT was complete and total distress. I could feel how terrified he was in that moment. In NNT, it was more "haha look at that stupid face he just made".

Having a very lively and exaggerated cartoony character isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just completely unfitting for this specific game. I like Abe's cartooniness and wouldn't mind seeing him move and act like that in something like an AE remake or the rest of the quintology, but for NNT it just doesn't work that well. Even Molluk was too exaggerated. AO gave him that mysterious calm and collected persona, which frankly makes him much more intimidating. Now he just seems like some asshole with anger issues.

This is just what I've pulled out of the intro. I have yet to play the actual game, and I can only hope that the rest makes up for what I've gotten out of the intro, but I know the story is going to feel nothing like AO and that's not something I can get behind since I believe the way AO told it's story was masterfully done.


Also, AO only needed a remake gameplay wise. And that's only because a few mechanics and puzzle designs were crap and a half. The back and forth in AO was definitely it's worst point, but that's not saying much considering how well done the entire rest of the game was and how solid the controls were.

Well my point was that the characters in AO essentially had no personality. Maybe it's different strokes and all but I thought the characters and characterisation in Exoddus was *much* better than in Oddysse.

I meanthe thing I loved about it was that it had rather goofy characters in a dark world. AE is the game where they actually seemed to figure out what Oddworld was supposed to be. Munch took it too far in the goofy direction at points but from all the livestreams I've seen there hasn't been anything that seemed sillier than Abe falling down the cliff or banging his head on the conveyor belt from the original.

Oddysee had a great mysticism that AE lacked but AE certainly seemed a much more confident game with the handling of its characters and creatures - and I'm no seeing much in NnT that's steering it into Munch direction (I do think Abe's reaction is less chilling than the original - but I don't think Molluck feels neutered)

But I imagine opinions from those who've actually played the game would be better.

AE was a continuation of AO, so of course it's going to have more characterization. You know, characters become more established as their story is told and what not.

THANKFULLY it doesn't look like the over the top cartooniness or failed attempt at making the protagonist seem badass of MO or I'm pretty sure I'd just drop the franchise as a whole

Basically, what I'm saying is, gradual characterization > BOOM OVER EXAGGERATION LOOK AT THE EXACT ARCHETYPE THIS CHARACTER IS RIGHT OFF THE BAT YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH

I agree with Slog Bait that the cartoonyness has been taken way over the top and should really go back to the levels of AE and not an inch further. I dunno how Lorne thinks mixing this pretty deep story with over the top comedy is a good idea. Because the story of Abe is inherently not a comedic one. It has some very serious tones that are kind of bleached out by the forced comedy that is supposed to brighten it all up.

A good example, aside from the mentioned intro, is the cutscene where Abe gets his Shrykull powers. It's a pretty powerful cutscene where Abe is greeted by some of those he already saved, is unsure on what to do next and then gets this ancient mystical powers. Afterwards he realizes what he has and walks out with this badass look on his face. That's where it should have ended. But for some reason there has to be some forced comedy and Abe trips and falls on his face. Sure it makes you chuckle, but it's extremely out of place.

I really hope they tone it down a bit in future games.

But from what I've seen the humour coming from the characters seems no more goofy than it was in AE. I mean pretty much every cutscene in AE was filled with humour besides the Bad Ending.

EDIT: And I mean, Havoc, they took out the goofiest scene in AO and replaced it with a relatively dark one (Abe hitting his head versus the attack between two Scrabs).

Yeah because AE was a continuation of AO and AO was the start of Abe's character arc, therefore the start of his character development from our perspective.

It worked for AE, even if there were still some cringe worthy moments of forced humour, but AE and AO were not the same game and both carried different atmospheres. AO was someone who I can guarantee was the goof he's been portrayed that... up until he found out his "employers" planned to kill him and his buddies for food and they were all being kept in the dark about it. Then the entire rest of the game is basically him going through a massive crisis and trying to get everyone the hell out of there before they all, you know, DIE. They even showed right off the bat he was kind of happy go lucky and generally a laid back goof considering he thought he had a good job and was happily waxing the damn floor before the events of the story.

I can guarantee his levels of goofiness would drop an insane amount during all that. They would pick back up for AE slowly along the course of the game because you can never change who you are at your core, but even then he was still kind of cautious and uncertain about everything while everyone else around him and inhabiting the world showed they were much more confident and were generally goofy in comparison. It was a good contrast and showed how the different characters handled the past events and current scenarios. And heck, the further into AE you got, the more confident Abe became. It was pretty cool.

The way AE's story was told allowed the focus to be on the characters and their general silliness. The way that silliness was portrayed didn't take away from the story at all. AE was more focused on expanding on the world itself, rather than telling the tragic story of this naive slave with a ~destiny~.

Comparing AE character's portrayal to AO's character portrayals only works when talking about perspective and character development. It's likely in AO everyone around him and inhabiting the universe acted just as it was shown in AE but that wasn't important to the story, so there's absolutely no need to show it.

Nah. I like the goofiness. I mean Abe has a command to fart for fucks sake. And you get to control them in AE. It fits Abe's character so well as well as many other creatures in Oddworld.

Plus the Abe tripping up after acquiring Shrykull actually made me giggle

Ah, no, I was saying that the characters essentially had little personality in the first game. As in the characters were very basic. Whilst in Abe's Exoddus they actually became characters. As in it was their first game therefore they hadn't really spent a lot of time on the characters and story.

And I'm not just even talking about characters as in Abe, Alf, etc. Almost every speaking part in AE felt like a fully fledged character whilst in the first game only Abe sort of had any chacterisation - and it wasn't particularly strong.

What I'm saying is that they seemed to figure out the personalities and how to create better characters in AE. I imagine this was partly due to the fact that they could afford to work on it since they already had the engine built. Whilst in AO the story and characters probably had to take a bit of a back seat because they were busy creating the game itself.

So to me it seems like they figured out who they wanted Abe to be, what personalities the Glukkons, Sligs, and Mudokons have in AE and NnT seems to be very much in line with that. Except that Molluck is still pretty much the big bad scary Glukkon.

That's almost exactly what I said, except I had the point of AO's portrayal was fine because it was Abe's melancholy account of the events of the game and it flowed well into the characterization and world building AE gave us. The story AO told didn't even require any major character development, but there was development. Just because it wasn't over exaggerated, in your face, and goofy, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

It was kind of obvious Abe was really bummed out the entire time he was remembering the events of AO.

Not to mention, the way AO is presented makes it so regardless of Abe's true personality, it tries to put the player in his shoes, so it works.


Actually, when I think about it, based on what I've seen, NNT is more of a third person view of the story and AO is a first person view of the story. Which, explains why there wasn't much going on with the other characters in AO. They mumbled and looked intimidating and were wise and mystical with masks and shit. It also explained why his actions weren't nearly as goofy, considering I highly doubt he sees his nerdiness. Also, things always seem way more grim when you're experiencing them first hand instead of looking in on things.

I like realistic settings (When I say that I don't mean non-fiction.), for everything if it be movies/games/books. Things can be funny in real life but I just prefer things to not be forced funny.
I laugh at comedies but I will never watch one twice. Like I would with a detailed realistic setting.
My point is, when I was first told about AO by a friend. My imagination ran wild! Just imagine somebody describe AO without ever seeing it and that is what it was like. It was such a scary tale and seemed so unique!
I played the game and was impressed, it lived up to the dark setting.
Then I saw AE and cringed eveytime a glukkon spoke... They seemed so much cooler in AO.
Then I saw cut scenes from MO and just stopped, I couldn't watch that crap. It was a nice story, but nothing new to be honest.
So yes my point is. I just want to see a darker setting, not too much but just like the original AO. But if Lorne goes funky stuff then I'll probably still play it, but It just won't be what I want. But sometimes you don't get what you want so whatever:D

Just to let you know. I love the look of the re-make, I know it sounds like I'm ranting but the only game I don;t like is MO. Thanks for reading, bye!

There's a difference between characterisation and slapstick. If, high on self-confidence, Abe then stumbles inelegantly before recovering, that is characterisation, it's more subtle, and still brings him back to reality. Falling over is slapstick. There is a place for slapstick, but I haven't seen the game yet, so I can't judge whether it's right or not.

The story in AO and AE were done in totally different styles. NnT follows from AE and MO, because that's what Oddworld is. They have made the decision to tell the story in a different way.

Well, not really Slogbait. Sure, that's they way they told the story in AO but as NnT is showing you can tell the exact same story yet inject some of the goofy personality that became integral to Oddworld in AE. It's not really about story telling perspective. You can still have a first person perspective yet still have characters who are more than just mumbling archetypes.

AO had some slapstick jokes and a button dedicated to in game farting. AE established actualy personalities for the creatures of Oddworld.

From what I can tell about NnT it seems they've added a couple of goofy moments in the cutscenes, yet still tell pretty much the exact same story in the same way, and have transferred the character personalities into the gameplay - because that's what Sligs & Mudokons are supposed to be. And they've eve added a couple of moments of dark moments that are also a pat of the series.

I mean it looks like they've pretty much captured the original yet included the elements that make Oddworld, Oddworld - since the original game feels like they were still figuring out what they wanted Oddworld to be. So it makes sense that NnT carries some of the humour and personalities that was found in AE onwards.

I mean if they had made Molluck a completely comedic character like the AE Glukkons I think you'd have more of a point here, Slog.

I have no idea why I bother trying to discuss this shit when I know the people trying to counter what I'm saying aren't listening to what I'm saying.

Hey Phylum, my last post (excluding this one) already outlined the fact that the stories in AO and AE were told totally different. I explained why I thought it worked for AE and not AO, and why it bums me out that NNT took this approach. When I said that, I had the epiphany that that decision switched the perspective of what we saw from Abe's POV to a viewer looking in on the world, which is what AE and MO both did.

I obviously don't like that decision or I wouldn't be bitching about it right now.

Sock, yes really. The story itself is still told from a first person POV, but what you actually see has become you looking in on the world rather than seeing things as Abe no doubt saw things. In AO, you could hardly make out what any of the other characters were saying in the cutscenes. It focused specifically on the grand reveal without focusing on the other characters because it only showed what was most important to Abe at the time.

They don't tell the story in the same way. The visuals were a huge part of the story and they've changed them enough that it changes the tone of the game. I haven't played the full game yet, I can't judge the rest of the game, but first impressions are everything. You know exactly how they plan to go about the rest of the game just with how they present the beginning alone.

I don't even know what makes Oddworld Oddworld anymore. Shitty slapstick with some dark overtones that got dimmed over time with over exaggerated characters taking away from the severity of the story therefore lessening the impact on the viewer and hit or miss game design. The only thing I'm still on board for is the creature design and general world building because I can't deny everything still looks cool as fuck.

Molluck still comes across as an asshole with anger issues compared to his cool collected self in AO. Call that flat and personality less or not, it was still far more intimidating.

That's what Oddworld is though. It's a satirical take on the world. It has exaggerated characters, and listening to Lorne the slapstick comedic elements are obviously important to him.

The things you hate are actually what Oddworld has been since around 1998, and probably even earlier in Lorne's head. It's not complaining about things that could be better at this point. It's creative differences between you and the people making the games.

It didn't start that way. It gradually became that over time from our point of view.

At no point did I say I hated it. There are a lot of things about the series I don't like. I think the slapstick is incredibly inappropriate at times and that's what makes it so cringe worthy. The actual story itself at it's core makes me roll my eyes. Major retcons piss me off no matter which series I'm following. Etc etc. But hey, I actually like the over exaggerated cartooniness of the characters in NNT's intro because it gives them so much life. even if it's a false sense of life. my initially impression was "wow they sure are lively" but i already bitched about how i realized that overexaggeration doesnt necessarily mean better portrayal

What this whole discussion has been about and everything I've been saying is "I'm disappointed by the decision to change how the story was told in the remake of the game that established the series because I don't think it does the story justice." I'd like to see these character portrayals in a remake of AE. It's much more suiting for that game, and I wouldn't mind seeing them continue to be portrayed like that in later installments. For AO and NNT, I don't think it works, and it actually takes away from the experience.

I think that last bit might be more valid if NNT wasn't a remake of an already existing game. It's more like creative differences between the team then and now and me just whining because my expectations for NNT were different. TBH I don't think I'd be so disappointed if I weren't assured the tone wasn't different when I expressed concern in the past.

Ok.

Such a conversationalist

I don't usually agree with people, but I agree with what Slog Bait said

As I understand it, the original concept for Munch's Oddysee bears little resemblance to the product that was released for the Xbox. With that in mind, I'd expect a reboot of MO to be an almost entirely new game.
As far as the 2D vs 3D argument is concerned, even though I've grown to love the original games (much more so than the MO that ended up being released if I may say so!) I have to disagree with the people looking toward the quintology being continued in 2D, even if only as far as MO is concerned. It's understandable that at this point in the series people find themselves preferring the older games but IIRC Lorne himself stated at one point or another that the reason he chose this format in the first place is the limitations that existed within late 90s console hardware. In a nutshell, Oddworld may have succeeded at being 2D but it was not meant to be 2D and as far as world-building and general expansion of the series is concerned I can see these goals being accomplished far more effectively in three dimensions.

I agree, AO and AE should be the only 2D games for oddworld at the moment. :)

But again, and this is a really important distinction, the question isn't whether or not Oddworld can work in a 3D world. Stranger's Wrath proves that it can. The question is whether the developers can create a compelling 3D game world without going massively over budget, and going out of business.

Actually this sounds like quite a good idea.

I’m curious to see if this is possible. There’s certainly been a large investment in 3D assets for New n Tasty, despite it sticking to a side scrolling perspective. Would a fully 3D Oddworld platformer require a significantly larger investment? If it was a relatively short, focused and linear affair (instead of huge swathes of empty free roaming space like MO), then it might be feasible.

Of course there would still be an increase in complexity for puzzles, controls and AI, which would inevitably have a knock-on effect on production time and QA costs, so it’s unlikely that we’ll see a full 3D Oddworld game as JAW’s next project. But if NnT and the inevitable AE remake do well, we could see something larger on the horizon.

As far as the question of whether OWI is financially capable of developing such a game is concerned, we'll probably have to see how well New'n'Tasty as well as the AE reboot which I presume will follow it fare.

I don't know. The idea that Oddworld is a serious, deep, dark story just seems silly. I mean even in the original you had a couple of moments of slapstick and a fart button.

But Slog Bait, I disagree with your assessment of the perspective. The reason nothing was really developed wasn't because we were seeing things from Abe's perspective in the first game - but just because they were underdeveloped.

I mean even if the comedy was less abundant in AO it was still there and the fact that Exoddus came out only 9 months after the first should tell you that they are the type of characters that Oddworld is really about.

There needs to be a consistency here. If the tone of AE is the tone of Oddworld it makes no sense to take a step back with NnT. It's fine that they hadn't figured out Oddworld in the first game but it doesn't make sense to then take that step back in the remake 17 years on - when the tone of Oddworld has been pretty firmly established: satirical characters within a bleak world. Comedy and darkness.

I mean if you'd want to turn Oddworld into a dark and serious tale then the dramatic quality needs to be much better than it is. You'd need great dialogue and great dramatic characterisation otherwise it's going to feel like a shitty, cheesy dramatic video game that are a dime a dozen. What's dark about Oddworld is it's themes and world which I think are highlighted better when the characters that populate it - bar a few scary villains - are being rather comedic and silly.

I do think that AO had a great sense of mysticism which should be maintained - but I'd chalk that up to the fact that AO was about Abe's destiny and AE was about saving more Mudokons and helping some spirits.

I stopped reading right there.

Yes, Oddworld frequently features comedic elements. It also strongly condemns capitalism; frequently frames industrialization as villainous and destructive; and uses pollution, unethical business practice, pharmaceutical experimentation on animals, slavery and destruction of indigenous culture as story elements.

I think all it takes is a browse through the concept art produced for the series to see the tone that OWI wanted to create for the world. There has always been an element of slapstick humor, but this was often used in small doses and never defined the overall mood of the series.

Kind of makes your reply rather pointless though, doesn't it? Since i sort of elaborated the point in more detail further down... which doesn't really contradict your point despite what you gathered from my first sentence....

So you're saying because AE had a lighter tone and focused more on the characters, and that it came after AO, that going back to AO's story telling for the remake of AO would be stepping backwards?

It's a continuation of a story. By telling AO like AE was told, there's little to no visual progression and for people who's introduction to the series is NNT, it's not going to have that flow that we got playing AO to AE.

It's a tragedy. Tragedy and comedy go hand in hand. Of course there's going to be humour, but there was a good balance of humour vs crisis in AO and AE. AE allowed more humour and the way the story was told didn't let that humour hinder it any. NNT however, following the story of AO, tells it in a different way that honestly feels like you're watching something rather than standing in the characters shoes. No idea if this changes during the game, but I have a strong feeling it doesn't.

MO is the only one so far that didn't do the dark side of Oddworld well enough outside of the opening and bad ending cutscenes. And that bad ending cutscene was actually too over the top if you ask me, even if I love it.

AO, being the start of the story, and a very small part of it, didn't require much development. Hell, I'd argue there was in fact an insane amount of development. The world felt believable, Abe had just enough personality that you had an understanding what he was going through, and it was made clear just how dark this world was. It lightened it up pretty quickly upon entering the actual game and discovering you could glitch fart a slig off a ledge to it's death. But, it still kept it's overall dark tone and presented it beautifully.

Then you had a bit of slap stick here and there and more fart jokes and none of them were particularly cringe worthy. AE came along and turned up the comedic factors a bit and developed the characters and worlds more. I will always find the fact that you could possess your own fart and make it explode fucking comedic genius. You took the 'meh' toilet joke and turned it into a riot.

I think it's best to just drop this conversation now and agree to disagree, because we've both already stated our points, and I'd rather not clutter another several pages of this thread with this discussion. I'd much prefer to wait until I've actually played it before discussing it more, actually.


In regards to 3D vs 2D Oddworld, it depends on the characters involved. Abe works well in a 2D space, Munch works well in a 3D space. I have a hard time seeing MO in 2D and think that would limit it a little too much. I think Oddworld would benefit from sticking to 3D from here on out as far as the quintology's concerned.

I'd like to see something from OWI, considering how well they handle visuals, along the same veins of Rayman Origins in that everything is obviously hand drawn/painted. Especially with how Rupture Farms was presented this time around. It would definitely be some eye candy.

Dark comedy, to be more precise. People too often forget that comedy and darkness aren't opposites, and that they usually mix really well. The comedy is what makes a satire like Oddworld work, and without it, the series might risk becoming preachy and pretentious in its message.

This is basically a long way of saying "I agree with you".

Dark comedy is not slapstick or cartoonish characterization, though.

I'm more just saying it's a sense of consistency. since they seemd to have locked down a tone in AE (which isn't necessarily lighter - since AE's plot is pretty dark) which is probably more the fact that the characters (Mudokons, Sligs, Abe) have more humourous elements to them. So it makes sense to add these to a remake of AO since there's a consistency in the characters and less of a noticeable change between NnT and future installments of the Quintology. But besides from a couple of moments in the cutscenes from I've seen the majority of this takes place within gameplay and the dialogue heard by Mudokons and Sligs. And, I mean, they even took the most cartoonish cutscene from AO and made it relatively a lot darker - so they haven't abandoned that side of the storytelling as well.

But yeah that'll be my final word too I guess. unless Manco replies with a harshly worded comment....

Not by default, no. A group of creatures wanting to make money from turning another group of creatures into lollypops, however, is, and it's amplified by the way they laugh about it. It's a ridiculous scenario, yet it's also a reflection of things going on in reality.

AO was a dark and mysterious game with a couple of gags and quite a simple story. AE was a more developed world with a few more developed jokes, but still retained a dark atmosphere while lessening some of the mythical and mysterious overtones. MO was much more heavily focused on slapstick and humor, with some nods to darker themes. SW was a fairly serious story with more of a spaghetti western grit than mystery or myth, and while it had a couple of gags here and there it didn’t linger on them or drop them into important cutscenes.

I don’t think that AE was a particularly comedic game, and neither was SW. I think placing more emphasis on humor in NnT brings it closer to MO than any other game in the series, so I don’t understand the argument that introducing more humor brings it in line with the rest of the series.


e:
I wouldn’t really say that compares. Sure, there’s a humorous element because chopping up your employees for the sake of profit comes across as an obviously villainous and ridiculous thing to do, but it’s presented in a different light to, say, Abe’s cartoonishly exaggerated response to the revelation and his Looney Tunes-esque exit from the scene.

Really? Essentially every cutscene in AE was full of jokes or humour. It was dark and grim as well but I don't see how NnT is much more humourous than AE to the point of going past MO's more cartoonish feel. Only the ingame characters are more humourous and to me that's just the characters in game lining up to the characters you see in the cutscenes.

AE had you control Abe's farts as a core mechanic, and SW is a game in which you shoot out tiny animals and bugs from a crossbow. Those games were plenty silly, but they still managed to have a serious story going on, and did a great job of balancing the two.

MO, on the other hand, wasn't very dark. It still had a darker tone than most 3D platformers, but for Oddworld's standards, it felt very sugar coated, and this naturally affected the comedy (except the bad ending, which is awesome).

I'm still not entirely sure how NnT is that much more comedic than Oddysee or Exoddus, just because it has more expressive characters and a couple of silly one liners from the Mudokons.

A lot of AE’s humor is quite deadpan in its delivery, which helps with its integration into the larger world presented in the game. Take the MOM interviews with Phlegm, Dripik and Aslik – all three are portrayed as incompetent in some way, but it’s entirely through what they’re saying. The player sees this incompetence but nobody calls them on it in the game and the joke isn’t lingered on. Wordplay like this doesn’t come across as aggressively cartoonish and unrealistic as visual slapstick like a character tripping and falling while accompanied by goofy sound effects.

As to “characters in game lining up to the characters you see in the cutscenes”, this just further takes away from the atmosphere as it spreads humor out through the entire game, making it more common and therefore allowing the player to grow accustomed to it. It doesn’t allow a contrast to develop between the dark and the comedic, as you are constantly being presented with both.