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T-nex 05-23-2011 08:26 AM

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We don't know, there's not enough information on Heaven for us to base any form of analysis on, don't make such accusations, especially if they are so offensively construed.

How is that offensive? Really... This wasn't even directed at you.

It was a half-joke really.... But now that I think about it. If our craves and needs DID get removed in heaven, that would be very scary, because that means our entire persona would be altered, meaning we become someone we weren't initially. So it would be a form of brainwashing. I wouldn't like that :(

STM 05-23-2011 08:30 AM

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Wouldn't that make god a brainwashing bastard?? :S

I'm gonna go ahead and quote this, I'll leave you to decide whether or not that might offend someone of a religious nature. Whether or not that is of any importance to you any way is something else entirely.

The thing is, we don't know, we simply don't, until we die it's unlikely we will, I am in the same boat as you in that I too would like to remember my old life, even if it is only the good stuff for example. I don't think it's in God's nature to rewire our brains to make us apathetic when Heaven is practically over flowing with love as Jesus stated to us (paraphr.)

T-nex 05-23-2011 08:35 AM

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I'm gonna go ahead and quote this, I'll leave you to decide whether or not that might offend someone of a religious nature. Whether or not that is of any importance to you any way is something else entirely.


The point is... It was a question. Not stating a fact... Thus taking offense to a mere question is stretching it by far.
I know we don't know anything, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss anything. The point of discussions is to present a topic and take it from there. You cant force people to discuss something just because it's abstract and unknowable.
Then what is the point of discussing anything spiritually?

The fact that we don't even know anything is is why you shouldn't take offense as I didn't present it as a fact.

God... explaining jokes sucks...

STM 05-23-2011 08:37 AM

Sorry, just doesn't seem a very nice joke. Jokes make people laugh but I cried. =*(

XD

Manco 05-23-2011 09:07 AM

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God... explaining jokes sucks...

"Why do you think I've never explained the meaning of life?"
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http://i51.tinypic.com/2vt5oo8.png

T-nex 05-23-2011 09:14 AM

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"Why do you think I've never explained the meaning of life?"
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http://i51.tinypic.com/2vt5oo8.png

Goddamn, I can't posrep you XD

Nate 05-24-2011 03:46 AM

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All I'm saying is that it seems strange that a heaven would lack any physical pleasures.

Why would it have physical pleasures? You won't have a physical body. You'll be a being of pure spirit.

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If the need for physical pleasure in heaven was removed... wouldn't that have defeated the whole purpose of free will?

The purpose of free will is to test you down on earth. What's the point of having it in Heaven?

MeechMunchie 05-24-2011 05:41 AM

Because without it we wouldn't be us. What's the point of being a person who earns paradise if you're no longer that person when you get there? They may as well have just cut out the living bit.

T-nex 05-24-2011 05:56 AM

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Because without it we wouldn't be us. What's the point of being a person who earns paradise if you're no longer that person when you get there? They may as well have just cut out the living bit.

This pretty much...


Maybe my 'new' person will be happy with the way things are in heaven... And that Nikki will have fun and be free forever. But me... as I am now, will be dead.

The only way I will still be me in heaven would be if I changed my persona on my own, with no magical powers and such.

I mean we change as people all the time, but it mostly comes from within. If we drastically turn because of outside factors, that is called brainwashing.... or magic... Either way, it will have been 'someone' that changed us.

To me that is the same as being killed. :(

STM 05-24-2011 06:01 AM

I think Nexy, you don't have to worry, because although it is true that this life is a test for the next, why bother testing us if we didn't have free will in Heaven? It doesn't make sense. =)

Havoc 05-24-2011 07:45 AM

Because the evil masters only want calm, obedient sheep that do whatever they are told. Thus anyone stupid enough to follow a book is deemed acceptable and those who ask questions are thrown into the fiery pits of hell.

That sounds like a plausible theory actually.

Rex Tirano 05-24-2011 08:56 AM

Harold Camping has now moved the date of the end of the world to October 21. He felt so terrible that his prediction wasn't right on Saturday that he ran away to a motel with his wife for a night.

I don't really understand the lack of free will in heaven? So people would become almost like robots? And you would be happy because God would make you happy, rather than because you were doing things or experiencing things that made you happy?

- Rexy

STM 05-24-2011 09:50 AM

Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

Rex Tirano 05-24-2011 10:24 AM

So is it a similar situation if you go to hell then? Like you got through the fiery pits of hell, etc. But you have no free will?

Or is that also an area of haziness and limited knowledge?

- Rexy

STM 05-24-2011 10:39 AM

Well, we think that there is a lack of free will in Hell because of what we can put into context from religious writings, very little is explained about Heaven, (maybe they don't want to ruin the surprise for us?) but I expect you have a modicum of self control in Hell because it makes the torment that much worse, and I suppose you'd have to know what you'd done to deserve such pain...

Bullet Magnet 05-24-2011 10:49 AM

Revelations 4

Wings of Fire 05-24-2011 10:55 AM

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Revelations 4

Disputed canon.

STM 05-24-2011 10:59 AM

What does that have to do with jack all?

Havoc 05-24-2011 11:08 AM

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Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

So what if heaven is worse than hell?

Manco 05-24-2011 11:59 AM

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Why would it have physical pleasures? You won't have a physical body. You'll be a being of pure spirit.

Pretty raw deal there if you ask me, the pleasures of the flesh are pretty great.

Nate 05-24-2011 11:41 PM

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Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

We don't know anything definitively, but there sure are plenty of opinions. See the video below.

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Because without it we wouldn't be us. What's the point of being a person who earns paradise if you're no longer that person when you get there? They may as well have just cut out the living bit.

Well, that's the nub of the issue; if you accept the concept of heaven, that implies the existence of the soul. If you accept the existence of the soul, that implies that the soul existed before you were born and will exist after you die.

Some might say that the soul is the manifestation of the mind and that everything we think and feel is what our soul is thinking and feeling. Others (and this is what many Jewish scholars suggest) say that the soul resides in the physical body, but that our existence and personality is made up of many drives and pressures, of which the soul is only one. If that sounds wierd to you, consider this: the soul, as an entity of pure, righteous spirit, knows definitively what is right and what is wrong. Meanwhile, we as people aren't always sure what is the right path to choose and we sometimes even consciously choose to follow the wrong path. So the idea is that what we percieve as our mind and our personality is actually a base, worldy construct that lies on top of - and distracts from - our spiritual self.

So, ultimately, the concept I've been arguing is that death strips away the earthly personality and the soul that has been riding within us all this time gets its just rewards. But, as a soul and nothing more, its desires are those of ethereal beings, not of our human drives.



Here is an interesting interview with an author of a book about Heaven. Her description of Dante's Paradiso is actually quite close to what I've heard from Jewish speakers about heaven.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...10/lisa-miller

Sekto Springs 05-25-2011 12:11 AM

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So, ultimately, the concept I've been arguing is that death strips away the earthly personality and the soul that has been riding within us all this time gets its just rewards. But, as a soul and nothing more, its desires are those of ethereal beings, not of our human drives.
Taking that into consideration, wouldn't most souls be identical? If we are made unique by our flaws and worldly values and our spiritual self is just an inscrutable, moral compass that points to "good".

Nate 05-25-2011 02:19 AM

Good point. Possibly. That's beyond anything I've ever heard any opinions on though.

STM 05-25-2011 04:22 AM

That video is unavailable in the UK...what did it say?

DarkHoodness 05-25-2011 06:02 AM

Oh, people might be interested in this if you have an hour and live in the UK - A lot of arguments in this programme reflect those that were discussed here on this forum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._4_Episode_17/ (available until Sunday, May 29th 2011)