I don't think that. I do in this instance think that the answer is far simpler. I am also of the opinion that modern people make the same mistake.

(I quote the whole thing here just so that nothing's out of context, points are bolded)

Christians did indeed see themselves as the oppressed; and as time-tested tactics tell us, people who are acting in desperation are the easiest to control when a figure of 'stability' or 'leadership' takes the reigns. "Come children, we have exactly what you need." Using the very essential basics of moral conduct that religion teaches at its foundation, and adding in a lot of extra hoo-ha, the whole resulting 'belief system' becomes something that followers cannot only just swallow, but are also more than willing to do so through its veil of 'good intention.'

So can we look at the ruling class on a quest for power? Could we consider that controlling man's mind is indeed absolute power? We look at history and all its accounts of man's 'leaders,' whether they are religious leaders or other social leaders and, exactly as you put it, the 'ideas' and 'beliefs' tend to have a way of working their way down through the ranks either through ways that are directly 'forceful' (believe or die).... or through less direct yet similarly effective ways which are to make the beliefs or ideas a 'social trend' ... so that they overtake the mind/individual by what's been termed 'tyranny of the majority;' the idea that what is commonly accepted/socially acceptable is right.

The Bible does not have to depict Satan. When this idea written of Satan in the Bible is 'elaborated upon' by religious leaders, the follower's minds do all the work in making the association. So then the critical question in response to this is then: why has the stereotype of Satan been the horned devil being that it has been for centuries... and where have we seen this figure before? This goes much deeper than 'black and white' terms of ugly vs beautiful that it may appear to be to you on the surface. Where did the depiction come from? How can absolute power be attained by letting other 'options' or 'belief systems' stay available to those you are trying to control? Look at modern times.... are we still seeing this today?

and also,

I think this fits well into the subject, because it's easy to see historical figures as two dimensional... we may have never known them personally, and without this personal firsthand experience things, in our own perception tend to be unbased, as we have no real 'foundation' to base these people/thoughts/experiences upon. What I'm saying is that anything outside of our own perception and experience is not concrete unless we're willing to take secondhand information as evidence or proof without critical thought and think we then know all about it. :D

I can find no fault in this except to say this. I believe that there is very little difference between modern man and ancient man. This leads me to believe that since modern day zealots rarely take the strategy of consciously trying to mislead and instead use their own fear and mistaken translations of text to cow people into believing what they do, the ancient Christians most likely did the same. I'm going to quote myself here.
They did incorporate the pagan appearance of deities (this is how it's spelled Shaman) into their own idea of evil's greatest champion, Satan. What I meant when discussing this is that there is nothing within the Christian texts to back up this appearance and that it was something that people attributed to their faith through the fear that seeing pagan texts produced in them.

However, I think the idea that there was some sort of socio-political plan both gives too little and too much credit to the Christians.

Agreed. This is idiocy.

Oh, you love it.

Also, Kastere's comment has to be taken with a grain of salt since he decided to join the talks for a bit.

One of the many reasons why Neil Gaiman's Sandman graphic novels are a good read.

True, but I was being honest about how I feel about this. I can agree that Wicca is currently (in my opinion) "pretentious hipster shit with a following of complete ignoramuses and sheep." But people still believe in it and if it means they have some valid opinions about the state of pollution, I can dig it. Just don't expect me to buy your diatribes on how everything has a soul when you're some trendy shittop.

Fucking agreed.

God, you're turning into me, I would SO say that.

Or GOD forbid I'm turning into you.

You know Kastere, words have the power to cut deep. From what you say you have no real understanding of what we're talking about, and share that in a way that is really immature and senselessly offensive. This puts off people who might want to share their own viewpoints that have real thought behind them for fear of being trashed. If anything I think your attitude shows that of a trendy shittop hipster. :fuzzle:

There's no room for that in the middle of a serious discussion... but then the whole 'venue' here (OWF) is not exactly all that serious; those are the breaks I suppose.

The only thing I can begin to extract from what you said about 'trendiness' is what I refer to 'spiritual fluffiness.' This is the taking of long established traditions and turning them into something 'modern' and 'trendy' for the sake of turning a profit... kind of like the 'new age' movement; go into a 'trendy' new age shop and spend all day buying crystals and incense and other 'fluffy' and practically meaningless things. This is spirituality? No. It's trendy fluffy nonsense with no connection to our past heritage or anything. It's empty.... but the buying makes people think that they are doing something truly 'spiritual' through the action.

OR, you don't actually understand what I was talking about.

Don't worry. I'll break them.

OohoHOhoh!!!

You've charmed me.

Once again the much more educated people brought me down with my tail beetween my legs.

I apologize for my last post. I probably sounded like a stupid jackass. Eh? It's just my head is REALLY stuck in the clouds of religions. And when people try and disprove a religion just because reality can't explain it, I usually get a bit angered by that. I'm just incredibly attatched to the idea of spiritual health.

Allow me to just say this.

Religion is purely free will, and perspectives are all equal (No matter how impossible they may sound).

I'd have to say that some perspectives are quite fatally flawed. Take the perspectives of the fine men of NAMBLA, for instance.

Anyhow, it's understandable that you felt the way you did. This is a mostly taboo subject. I don't think it should be, however. There would likely be a great deal less unwarranted prejudice and suffering in the world if people were not looked down upon for urging the religious to look at their religions objectively.

Don't apologize for lack of 'education,' critical thought and common sense are all that's required! It's these types of discussions where you learn more than not talking about it at all. :)

Always possible, but I mean it's perfectly understandable that this is the impression you've gotten with all the modern 'faddy' junk surrounding the issues. Your opinion is probably the same opinion of thousands. No long and sandpapery feelings about it.

Let's have what you really think about the issue without the lip, okay? :D

God forbid and all that but you are definitely turning into me.

Don't take the Claws away from the lobster, man.

I'm sure there are many stupid Wiccans who aren't sincere about their religion, just as there are many stupid, extemist Christians. However, within that flood of mediocrity dwells some intelligence and sincerity, I'm sure.

:D

Come on, Used. You're much better than such a silly blanket statement. We have three full pages of in depth conversation and that's what you had to offer? Come back with a real opinion. I'm well aware that you have them.

I don't really have an opinion. I've never really met any serious Wiccans before except for Ann Neely, who this thread desperately needs right now. What I've heard about the religion, I like. Of course, there's pretentious trends that follow, but who follows the trends? Juvenile idiots. I know I'm not even eighteen, but I don't see any better way to put it. Why should they give a bad name for a religion that been on the Earth far longer than they have? If it was something more black and white like Scientology, Libertarianism, or Dane Cook fans, then I'd have an opinion.

It's been on the earth since the 1950's.

Sorry OANST, I wasn't trying to draw you into a huge debate, I was just objecting to one of your points, evidently I felt like making myself sound pompous at that moment in time.

Now can we spend four pages criticising Satanism? I fucking HATE Anton LaVey.

My feelings about Satanism are identical to my feelings about Wicca. I would be more than happy to discuss how horribly stupid it is.

Elaboration pleez

Well OANST, why not share them, you must as well, oh, and bring in scientoligy aswell.
Seriouisly, I have a feeling that all of these new religeons, or at least, new believers have steemed from indervidualism and a rejection of traditionalism. People are wanting something new, something to seperate them from their heritage, to seperate themselves from eveeryone else, so almost in spite, they choose to believe something just to be controversial, and challange others and their previous security.
I think the same thing can be said about everything else, as the generations move on, they want more and more change, and so more and more rebellion occurs to the old, big powers that are religeon, aswell as now comercialism and the police, government etc.

Of course these religeons have always been around (mostly), but I'm trying to explain their popularity.

I hope I was clear :)

The Wiccan religion was created in the 1950's. Elaboration mission completed. Many points are mine.

This is why I hate Wicca.

Right

Fucking

Here

First off, I want to say I am not some teenager looking for "dark" kicks in Vampirism. I don't think Vampires are one of the coolest "myth-beasties" in the world, nor do I want to be one in a lunatick-like extreme like many wannabes who think Twilight is the coolest thing ever and want to become vampires so they can meet guys like "Edward" [I'm not trying to be mean, I personally know girls who are in that mindset around me, same thing as when "Legolas was the so-called hottest guy in the world" among little girl crazes which included my older sister for some time, what a shock!]

I am honestly curious about whether I was meant to be something "else", but I especially wonder if I’m unintentionally dangerous in a way?

All my life I have been accused of being something “other-than-human”, mainly a cat, but I won’t go into that because that is from childish bullying. When I say “other-than-human” I mean something more dangerous. With the things people have said and fear me for, I wonder if by some odd chance, that some type of Vampirism runs in my blood.

Why I wonder this:
1) People suddenly grow cold, especially if I’m not in the cheeriest of moods.
2) People quiver and look at me funny when beside me sometimes.
3) People grow weak around me as if I’m sucking their energy and many classmates go to sleep from this.
4) Even among my friends they have always felt a strange tint of scariness about me even though I am probably one of the sweetest people they could ever know.
5) My teeth are like vampire bats, they have no enamel so anything they chew makes their teeth sharper. My teeth have no enamel and they are all jaggedly sharp like a shark’s mouth. (my cheeks and tongue are scarred because of this)
6) I have craved to drink of human blood ever since I can remember (I’m serious). I even grew hungered enough to try to drink from a lizard, but something made me stop with my conscious screaming, ”NO! It is not HUMAN!” [age: five]. I also grew hungered enough to bite one of my cats (who promptly ran away and never returned v_v…) But since it wasn’t human blood for some reason I leaped up hissing, picked up some granite and shoved them into my mouth to get rid of the taste of cat blood. I did all this without even acknowledging I was doing them till I began to spit the granite out. [age: thirteen]
7) Every time I get a taste of human blood I involuntarily pause delighting in its taste. (I’ve done that a few times in front of my friends on accident and it creeped them out really bad…)
8 ) Sunlight makes me feel sick.
9) Insomniac (since age five) so far, no cure but to exhaust myself before bedtime.
10) Stupid fortune cookie said “You are of the night…”
Holy heck, a freakin’ fortune cookie told me this! What could be more convincing?!
11) Very strong senses in scent, and hearing.
12) My mother dressed strangly as if she could have possibly by some small chance be a vampire. Her boyfriend in one of the pictures my adoptive mom gave me shows my biological mother with a very "Nos Feratu-Vampiric" looking "young(?)" man, not only that, she is wearing a scarf... My father's whereabouts were unknown.

I thought I could be an unintentional psychic vampire because I have an insane pent up energy that could be from sucking the energy of my close sitting classmates (some have been across the room!). It fills my stress gauge so much my body cries at least four times a day (used to be ten or more). I literally just start leaking for no reason whatsoever during the day and try to bawl most of it all out every night if I remember to do so.
But what about this strange “blood-lust” and “sun-sickness”… maybe I’m both?

I know I’m not much of a witch when it comes to powers (*pfft*- can’t even make energy work from my hand to the ground when touching the ground already… seriously, drop-dead honest… I really suck…). Though I have been able to chanal another type of energy towards other people through my hand and it seemed to hurt the person. This is why I have been wondering if I was actually meant to be something “else”…

I would consult my Tarot for this, but I never seem to do it right for myself. Nothing matches. I know some readings are like that, but the readings I’ve done are so farfetched I have to read over my written question over and over again to see if you just can’t ask the tarot that kind of question or something. Everyone else’s readings I’ve done all flow together sometimes “too” nicely, so why the “off-the-wall” readings for me every time?
I'm asking you guys for advice because I can't ask my parents, they always have this "brainwashing" way of telling me something isn't "real" or that "it didn't happen". They do that often and it's kind of hard for me to stay out of their worded "brain-traps". I once revealed to them a terrible truth of what someone did to me and they quickly denied it so I was never able to tell them the even worser thing that someone else did to me...

So yeah, any help or advice from someone else would be much appreciated.


Edit: I almost pissed myself when i read this one:
My sister (whose been practicing far longer than i have) and I were going to cleanse my attic since it was bothering our family.
When we went up there to evaluate the problem, two shadows were apparent on one side of the attic.
I sheilded immediately (just incase), and we isolated them.
Thinking that was it, we called out any dark entities.
There were more than we thought.
On the other side of the room, one jumped out at me and knocked me backwards.
But with proper sheilding I wasn't harmed at all, and the problem is taken care of.

That reminds me a lot of women who think they have a disease/illness. Always saying they have all the symptoms. If you try to feel sick then you will feel sick. Blah.

Wait this isn't the prejudice thread. /ohwell

I didn't realize that I was double posting. Sorry about that guys.

Really. I'm not sure how I missed it but I did.

More than 24 hours between posts is allowed.

Also, next time you post something like that, I'd suggest quote tags. I got halfway through that before I realised you weren't talking about yourself...

I thought about that, too. But then became too lazy to fix it.

You're horribly stupid.






q.q

Well then. I. Hm. I give up.

Come on. You really don't want there to be any danger of people thinking that you are the one spouting that garbage?

I just couldn't really see that the danger existed.

Fair enough.

My vampire bear could beat the shit out of his vampire shark.

I feel incredibly enraged after reading part of that. Damn you for introducing me to such imbeciles.