Oddworld Forums - New Changes @ OWI

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Whoa! I was kinda scared there for a minute. But no, I think the title of this thread needs to be changed because it is misleading. Or it should at least be merged with this thread Outsourced Oddworld to reach new media?

Other than that I think this could be good for oddworld; we'll be seeing more of them in the future and that can only mean more coverage. I also have to agree totally with Oddguy's post. To reiterate here's the quote from Lorne

"We love the games. We're proud of them. We're glad you've enjoyed them. We want to bring you more in the way we believe it can be done. We don't want to compromise on the quality and intensity. There's more to come."

He's talking about the games and his last words are there's more to come. Oddworld's game production (on the basis of the above quote) has definately not stopped.

Close this topic. Imo, it confusing people.

What we really need now is for Alf to come along and make some kind of announcement. To clear up any questions we have... and stuff.

that Article said it al. I just hope what ever Lorne is doing is going good and Stranger Wrath makes a lot of money for Oddworld so that they can take the options they want.

The "Oddworld is DEAD" and "Outsourced Oddworld to reach new media" threads have been merged. They both were pretty much discussing the new changes at our favorite video game developer, OWI. Now people won't be confused. ;)

-oddguy

an old news Do you remeber?

Video-Game Publishers Increasingly Outsource Production
Posted on Sun, Mar. 21, 2004
By Dean Takahashi, San Jose Mercury News, Calif. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

Mar. 21 - Mark Vange is in the vanguard of globalizing the video-game industry. He employs 30 game developers in St. Petersburg, Russia, who have worked on everything from flight simulators to dragon-fighting games.

From his office in Toronto, Vange hires the Russians out to North American game publishers. As the cost of making a video game approaches that of producing a feature film, game publishers are looking to shave their production costs.

"We can get the work done for half the cost that it takes in the U.S.," said Vange, president of Ketsujin Studios.

Similar outsourcing of video-game production is being done in places like China, India, Vietnam and parts of Eastern Europe. California game developers, who are the creative force behind a $10 billion industry in the U.S. market, view the trend with a combination of fear and anticipation.

"It's happening more and more," says Lorne Lanning, president of game developer Oddworld Inhabitants in San Luis Obispo.

As Vange can attest, the offshoring trend that is sending so many high-tech jobs overseas has come to the video-game industry, resulting in a shake-up in the way that local publishers and developers do business.

For now the impact isn't nearly as devastating to the domestic workforce, thanks to the unique creative process behind video games.

Creating a game isn't like making a soul-less electronic widget. It is a craft that combines rote technical know-how as well as creative artistry, which is born from experience and a familiarity with the cultural tastes of a specific audience that plays the games.

Game developers have been willing to farm out some tasks, but they say they don't want to separate the tightly knit teams of creative talent whose input is vital to making a game fun. It's hard, for instance, for a Russian developer to know what will entertain Americans.

"Game development is uniquely different from other types of software development because of the creative process," said Michael Kim, an analyst at Roth Capital Partners in Newport Beach. "It is very difficult to communicate exactly what changes in a game need to be made because of cultural and linguistic differences. Development costs might be lower overseas, but product quality would probably suffer."

The part of a video game that is easiest to outsource is the art, which is what gamers see when they fire up the game on their consoles or computers.

Gamers would never know, or probably even care, that the Orcs in the upcoming Middle Earth Online game from Turbine Entertainment were created in Russia. And it likely matters little to them that Electronic Arts didn't construct all the furniture for "The Sims" game and that most of it was done by artists at a company called New Pencil in Sausalito.

New Pencil's team of 12 artists is taking note of the overseas outsourcing trend. Adam Murguia, the company's art director and co-founder, says that his shop has proven that outsourcing can work well in cutting costs, obtaining high quality results and meeting deadlines. For now, New Pencil does its work in Sausalito. But if push came to shove, it could also take on project management duties to help a publisher deal with an overseas art team.

"If that is the way the trend goes, we aren't in fear of it," Murguia said. "We can find our role in it."

By contrast, it is the programming and design of the interaction and characters in the game that must be performed in-house because it takes a process of trial and error to get it right, says Jeffrey Tseng, creative director at San Francisco game developer Secret Level.

As a result, the offshore companies that are chasing the game business find themselves at the low end of the food chain, taking small art jobs at first and working their way up.

So far, the game industry's version of offshoring is following the Hollywood model rather than the technology industry trend of sending big programming projects to India and elsewhere.

Much of the creative process and management of filmmaking is rooted in Hollywood, but the industry lowers its costs by filming overseas and creating animations for shows like "The Simpsons" in Asia.

"If you look at other entertainment and not technology, the development of entertainment doesn't travel well," says Bing Gordon, chief creative officer of Electronic Arts, the Redwood Shores game publisher which has 1,400 of its 4,700 employees in the Bay Area.

"We'll do development in low-cost places. But there is some magic in working face to face, and its hard to do development in places where people don't grow up playing games."

EA itself hasn't embraced offshore outsourcing yet. But even as game industry executives assert the heart of game development will stay in the Bay Area, Los Angeles, London and Tokyo, they acknowledge that the talent for making games is spreading worldwide.

For instance, French publisher Ubi Soft has opened two studios for developing games in China. That makes some wonder if the same sweeping changes buffeting the software industry will hit games in due time.

Overseas developers are establishing beach heads by taking over low-priority tasks, like translating a game for a local market or animating the demons that fill out the army in a fantasy game. They build up their skills and then bid on more complex jobs.

Where once there was no talent overseas, now there is plenty.

The International Game Developers Association has chapters in areas that were once nowhere on the map of the games industry: India, Pakistan, China, the Philippines and Taiwan. There are chapters in Slovakia and Lithuania as well as five South American outposts.

"If I were an artist, I'd take notice," said Jason Robar, a games veteran in Issaquah, Wash., who has brokered outsourcing deals between game publishers and offshore developers. Robar has teams in China, South Korea, the Czech Republic and Poland working on game art.

He is bidding on more and more outsourcing projects as publishers see the numbers offshoring produces. A veteran game programmer earns anywhere from $85,000 to $110,000 a year in salary, according to a survey by Game Developer magazine. At a place like Microsoft, added benefits and stock options increase the cost to the company to about $165,000 a year. By comparison, Robar says a senior artist or programmer in China takes home $15,000 a year.

For a project that costs $1 million in the U.S., Robar estimates that outsourcing art will bring the cost down to $750,000. Such savings will often determine whether a development house will make or lose money on a game.

"The economic pressures are there as a game's budget heads to $5 million or $10 million," said Jason Della Rocca, program director for the International Game Developers Association.

Some game companies have experienced nightmares with outsourcing. Of four recent outsourcing jobs, Argonaut, a developer in the United Kingdom, had trouble with three of them, said Joss Ellis, the company's chief operating officer. He subcontracted art work to a Russian company and found that because of missed deadlines, management travel and attention and communications costs, it wasn't worth it.

"We calculated that it would have been cheaper to do it internally," he said.

But as software industry veterans can attest, the game industry shouldn't be overly confident about its superiority. A case in point: one of the most anticipated PC games coming this year is "Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl," a shooting game with elaborate art from Calabasas-based THQ.

The entire game is being created by GSC Game World, whose headquarters is in Kiev, Ukraine, where there are an estimated 100 game development companies that didn't exist a decade ago.

Said Dan Kelly, THQ's vice president of development: "We're getting a very high quality game from a territory known for cheap labor."

Hmm. You know, I bet Lorne got pretty upset that Oddworld was being pigeon-holed into FPS games because of the current video gaming audience. No body seems to care about "clever" anymore...

If you look at the Abe games, it's hard to imagine that Lorne actually wanted OW to venture into the realm of shooters. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part. I can't exactly put the words into LL's mouth, you know.

And a smaller design team? Perhaps I can hold my breath for another 2D OW game now. I can only hope...

Still, it would have been nice to see how Fangus would have turned out (if it has been canceled).

Credit must go to Game Daily for actually providing evidence that Fangus has been cancelled:-

One of the members of the Oddworld team, in his March 30 blog, implied that the company's next game, code-named Fangus, had been cancelled and that the people not retained as part of the reorganization will “be broken up and spread around the industry.”

Fortunately, Mr Bloom does not say or imply that. He says that OWI will not be producing Fangus, and says it's a shame they did not get to use the Stranger Engine on that project. That's nothing along the lines of the project having been cancelled given the news that OWI is outsourcing development.

Thanks for redirecting people to the GameSpy article, Al. It seems in times such as these, people like to cling to buzzwords and brash headlines rather than take in the things that are actually said. Thanks too to Oddguy for getting rid of that hideously misleading ‘Oddworld is dead’ subject title.

Thanks for heads-up Max.

No Fangus then :( :crying:

There's always Stranger 2 or Munch's Exoddus.
I'm not saying that the whole idea of a
I'm just saying that Fangus didn't feel like Oddworld, mostly because his design was so uninspired. Wow, they took a big cat, gave it a human form, pumped it full of steroids, and sent it on a trigger-happy killing spree.

I would have lost faith in OWI if that game WAS passed. WHat happened to not caring about what the little tards of today wanted? Oddworld started off innocently, and now we have ****ing Frank Castle in full felinian form running around with 3 guns and a flock of damn sheep.

I'm sorry, but Fangus just looks like yet another muscle-bound meatpuppet from a generic video game.

Take it how you want, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for that (because people seem to get a hard-on for Fangus for soem reason).

But seriously, be the better person and try not to flame me if you respond to this.

Well, what more can I say that hasn't already been said? I suppose I'll just rebutt some things in here that rubbed me the wrong way:

Hmm. You know, I bet Lorne got pretty upset that Oddworld was being pigeon-holed into FPS games because of the current video gaming audience. No body seems to care about "clever" anymore...

Um, part of that is true, that the FPS games are more popular than the 2D games from yesteryear, but I do believe that Lorne liked the FPS genre as he said he got a lot of his inspiration from Halo. It's just that back then he wasn't able to do some of the things that he could do these days and so that's why only recently he's been able to perfect the gameplay as well as the great story.

Fortunately, Mr Bloom does not say or imply that. He says that OWI will not be producing Fangus, and says it's a shame they did not get to use the Stranger Engine on that project. That's nothing along the lines of the project having been cancelled given the news that OWI is outsourcing development.

So that's it? Fangus is history? No more? What about the Stranger engine? Gone? No one cares anymore? What are they going to do now then? Sit on their fat asses and veg out? I'm getting tired of all this "good news."

There's always Stranger 2 or Munch's Exoddus.

Says who? The Stranger engine is scrapped, right? I mean, they could have easily used it for Fangus, but that being cancelled, I'm betting that it's totally scrapped by now, since it has no use anymore. Munch's Exoddus... Right... Like I wanted Munch's ODDYSEE, let alone a sequel to that. Why revert back to the collect-a-thon gameplay and the gummy control? God I hated that game.

I'm sorry, but Fangus just looks like yet another muscle-bound meatpuppet from a generic video game.

He was really detailed, and I loved that more than anything else. He could have been scrawny as hell, as long as he has great attention to detail on him. I really had no beef with that, but I suppose it could have looked more unique. But, meh, it's DEAD, so you got your wish ;)

Munch's Exoddus... Right... Like I wanted Munch's ODDYSEE, let alone a sequel to that. Why revert back to the collect-a-thon gameplay and the gummy control? God I hated that game.

Munch's Oddysee was planned to be much more than it was. Abe was going to meet the Queen Glukkon and help her to escape. Molluck was supposed to face off in court with the queen Glukkon, Lady Margaret. Munch was even supposed to have a hulk-like alter ego named Roid (origonally, Munch was also used to test steroids) that would rise when Munch became angered. But all of these were scrapped because of time restraints and game limitations.

Munch's Exoddus provides some hope for Munch's story, though. Abe can still help out Sam (the Queen Mud), and there's still the possibility for a trial. Roid might be history, though.

Just try to remember, it's not always the gaming quality, but the quintology is there to tell a story.

I don't think Munch's Exoddus will come out anytime soon. I think Lorne wants to expand his ideas and creative genius to other I.P.'s.

I really hope that they are focusing on working with Citizen Siege. The idea of it sounds awesome, judging by the title of the game of course.

So I was correct? Oddworld Inhabitants are not dead, just downsized and moving onto other medias, as well as Fangus being shelved. Thank the lord I didn't make rash assumptions, but rather infer from all the information I had.

Still, it's a crying shame to see Oddworld make such a decision.

Alcar...

These business changes are not sudden, they've been planning them for ages. Which is why it makes no sense that they would announce Fangus and then say it has been scrapped all within a week.

Which is why I think that we are either misinterpreting the statements or it is an april fools prank. Note that none of the games news sites have reported anything about OWI canning all game production, which means they have not put out any official press release about it, which means that all we are basing this on is a couple of people's blogs. Hardly a convincing source.

Of course, I get the impression that Fangus was just a game that was intendended to put their new engine to good use, as well as making more money more their movies in a relatively cheap manner (engine is made, people familiar, less development time, etc).

If it is an April Fools joke, then they've done an excellent job. They've conned two major gaming websites, and had Oddworld employees state on their blogs that they've been fired, and Oddworld is ceasing game development. Not too mention, the news has spread to Oddworld alumni, who I would suspect would not be too happy about being conned by their friends either. I wish I could say that I believe it is a huge April Fools joke, but I really, really, really, doubt it.

As for 'a couple of peoples blogs'. Considering they actually work for the company, I'd say it is fairly accurate. I'd have though that gaming websites, being media, and in it primarily for the money, would be less trustworthy. Ignacio Castano has mentioned that what has been 'marketed' [published by the media] is actually crap.

Alcar...

Ignacio Castano has mentioned that what has been 'marketed' [published by the media] is actually crap. => meaning it was produced by the publishers and developers, which in this case would be a good thing if we could get an official call.

I believe he was referring to what Lorne mentioned on GameSpy, and what GamaSutra had published. Oddworld currently has Majesco as its publisher, and no word from it has been seen. GameSpy's article was straight from Lorne.

Alcar...

Thanks too to Oddguy for getting rid of that hideously misleading ‘Oddworld is dead’ subject title.

I was not trying to be misleading, it was an error on the part of the two employees that said Oddworld is dead/end of oddworld, the title used the very quote that was used. Because the two quotes contained information that was not included in the Gamespy article, and were posted a few hours afterwards, it misleaded myself and others to believe this was breaking news announcing they had given up. The information has been corrected, so things aren't so bad.

I had internet problems since a couple of day and what do I see?
Oddworld is changing radically, and there are so much infos over here about this, can someone please make a short version of the whole story please

(additionally to that I'm coping with huge personal problems, sorry about that)

The first thing we ever saw about this was the GameSpy article featuring Lorne Lanning. Basically, Lorne passed on information to them that Oddworld had decided to close its game development facility in SLO, and move to Berkeley with a smaller core team. Why? So that they could reach new medias, and be able to use a different method of development, one using outsourcing.

Basically, Oddworld Inhabitants will continue to develop things. From the information I've received, and from the prior knowledge of such things, I inferred that Fangus had been shelved (just like HOO, SS, etc). Nothing official has come out yet, but I doubt we'll get a statement direct from OWI. Perhaps a gaming website, which isn't direct, nor can we completely rely on the moronic journalists to not scew the information.

Alcar...

thank you Alcar...

well this is a big news to me
I still can't decide if it's a good news, or a bad news...
I guess we'll have to wait and see, like we always do

I was not trying to be misleading …

I understand, MojoMan, but as we learnt more about the exact circumstances, it became highly inaccurate. Oddworld is far from dead, and we don't want to mislead people when they first visit GD.

I'm judging that workers' blogs are a fairly accurate way of getting elementary facts, but there's so much subjective interpretation in reading them that it's a bit irresponcible of a large media to compose an entire news article on that information alone. They come up with conclusions that are far cries from the facts presented.

More Oddworld in less time doesn't mean its going to be quality Oddworld! Man i soo depressed Oddworld was the reason i got into animation, now they are outsourcing work, I loved this company becasue they had the balls to create all their work inhouse and keep up the quality!

I just don't know, guess time will tell how things turn out.

the qualtity is what I'm the most worried about...
and the contunuity, how are they going to keep their whole world coherent by splitting it all the time?

Hire me as continuity manager!!! :p

I still have hope for Fangus. I mean, I think it'd look bad on a company if they announced something and then quickly took it back.
"Oh...nevermind. We forgot that we don't want to make this game. Our bad."

I would assume OWI knew they were making this step in a new direction for a while...it didn't just pop out of thin air. So, thinking that way...if the descision OWI made wasn't sudden, then it wouldn't compromise Fangus production. They already had this planned.

-oddguy

they can still say it was an april fool joke, even if the project was real...
so many things are happening at OWI we don't know about

I hope Fangus will come out
even if I realy begin to doubt so

Well, even if Fangus doesn't come out, I know OWI will be releasing some sweet stuff. I'll be happy with whatever they produce...especially in this new media.

-oddguy

Although technically they won't be producing it. Just to make that clear.

We also have to remember that both Fangus and the downsizing of Oddworld were not thought of on a whim within the week. They must have planned for this downsizing whilst doing Fangus, and especially whilst releasing information to that gaming magazine.

Well...Lornes final words in the article were comforting. I'm not sure what to make of this. They're concentrating on the story and characters. Lorne won't be able to keep a close eye on the techy people and poke them when they're going off track or when they aren't achieving the desired outcome. How will they get concepts across unaltered? People will want their stamp on things, a little tweek here and there. Lorne seems pretty enthusiastic but...the way I see it, despite the smaller cost to OWI, it also means less creative control.

heheh, I fully agree with dipstik on Fangus, I mean, I think I made it clear on the thread where the first appereance was announced, it was way too much like stranger, almost like a cheap shot off. And I dont see why you're all so up in arms about Fangus, after the whole fairytale deal and the "Hand of ODD" ordeal, I'd think you people would be used to things like this coming from OWI :p...though I guess the fans that are up in arms are the new ones, and not the people were around for Hand of ODD c.c.....goes to show the ugly side of the forum.

The way I learnt about this was far scarier, the flaming banner thingy for the april fools, and then not being sure what part exactly was april fools(closing of OWI or OWF), but I still took my time to look up all the info and read all the bits, until I finally came to the article.

I just hope this does not make OWI feel corporate, that it can keep it's unique feel up to the tech aspects...because, I think of all the non OW games out there, and I feel they all look the same, and knowing that the Simpsons does this outsourcing deal is not reasuring at all, I've absolutely despised the look of the Simpsons for a while now, I'd by far rather see the rough expressive drawings of the first season than this weenie production line impersonal shit that's coming out.

Still, I trust Lorne to pull the cable once again if things get as bad as the simpsons.

I am personally not going to give up on the april fool's joke untill I hear something official.

The GameSpy article was official.

I wouldnt mind an oddworld movie being made.

so this means there not going to make a new oddworld game

they are not going to do it themselves...
some other companies still may

Well dont have a funeral yet. Fangus is still possible

they are not going to do it themselves...
some other companies still may

Correct me if I'm wrong, but OWI's new plan of outsourcing certain aspects of game production doesn't mean OWI themselves wouldn't have any hand in making the games. This isn't like Oddworld on Gameboy. The article clearly stated that a small team at OWI would be involved in the characters, story, and design of the game, while the outsourcing would be for the technical parts. Programming etc...

-oddguy

some people of OWI were involved in the creation of MO on GBA...
but it would be the same with a bigger presence of the inhabitants regarding the story and artistic feel.