Funded and published of course, by a Tory/UKIP coalition.

I'm just not going to get into nitpicking every single little thing that just might be demeaning to women in one way or another. Seriously if the term 'chick flick' is already demeaning I don't see where this is going to ever end.

Didn't you yourself say that moviegoers are gullible, since they take fake social cues from movies that are unrealistic in presenting character relations? Again, how would you fix this? Dumb movies down to realistic (and boring) levels just so people don't walk out of the theater with the wrong social values?

Well now you've found a blog that states that roughly half of moviegoers are female (on a planet with 50% females, what are the odds?) and that females like female lead characters. Shocker.

Now take a more reliable poll and ask women on their own what kind of movies they like (on their own, not with male friends) instead of looking at ticket sales (seriously, how would you even track that with any accuracy?). I'm sure plenty of women like action movies, but I'm also sure that in a poll among 10.000 women, action movies most certainly wouldn't be at the top. Regardless of a male or female lead.

I've actually met more men than women that are into "chick flicks" and just about as many women as men I meet like action flicks

I think humans just like ridiculous over the top explosions and violence. It's a personality thing not a gender/sex thing

I'm just going to stay the fuck right out of this shit.

Oh no you're not get your arse in here and have an opinion you damned fence sitter.

He's not fence sitting. He's leaving the field.

He's a spectator. The kind that only turns up to tell participants that they suck.

That's not what you said, though. You didn't say that women don't like action films as much as other genres, you said they like action films less than men do, and that's why making action films for women isn't profitable. Manco has demonstrated that women make up fully half of the ticket sales for action films, and thereby make up as much of the market as men. You are wrong.

Not sure where or if this fits in.. But in recent music, 'larger' women are being 'empowered' by lyrics explaining that "men like curves, not bone" etc, accompanying the music videos with copious amounts of "twerking", grinding and air humping, which is all a bit bizarre as it doesn't LOOK empowering.. It looks degrading? Sexually suggestive music and music videos make more money than original, well written music that probably deserves more recognition.

I cba to post a link (and possibly corrupt OWF), but take a look at a music video called 'Anaconda' by "Nicki Minaj"... It's literally a song ENTIRELY about fat asses. It samples Sir Mix-a-lot's "baby got back" which is almost exactly the same lyrically. Meh. Or even look at video by a creepy disease ridden creature known as a "Miley Cyrus".. It's all sex sex sex... But it sells. Compare the sales of songs by Artists like these to your favourite Rock/Metal/Punk band, you'll probably feel like crying.

Isn't Nicki Minaj a parody artist like Ke$ha?

That is correct, it's supposed to be ironic.

Ke$ha's a parody? I thought she was just shit.

It's easy how you put label "ironic" / "parody" and now something is wonderful and doesn't suck

I still think that if you were to poll 10.000 men and 10.000 women, action movies would rank higher with the men than with the women, yes. And like I said, ticket sales are hardly trust worthy numbers as to what they actually like, for a variety of reasons.

Also thank you for quoting me out of context in your signature.

I'm pretty sure that's all that matters to film makers.

Anyway, blaming the media is a bit of a cop out. The media represents the values of society, not the other way-around. The reason most action movies have male protagonists is because actiony people in real life tend to be male; complaining about the lack of female leads in action movies is putting the cart before the horse.

It is about empowerment though. They own their own bodies, they take the power of sex away from men.

That's not to say I'm fond of the music, but I get what they're trying to do.

Oh, you think. Well, that's OK then. You can just think quietly in the corner, and come back to the discussion when you have some data.

Besides, you're still missing the point. Your position here is that making action films for women is not commercially viable. If your argument doesn't relate to how much women are actually spending on action films, I don't really see how it's relevant.

Even if you're right, and they routinely go to see films they think they'll hate, we've established that they are going, they still form 50% of the paying market, and therefore targeting them is still viable.

*Looks around*

I don't see any.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you want to argue about it, you'll have to come up with something a bit more substantial than implying arguments to support your position exist.

You're welcome. It looked even worse in context.

Ke$ha's flat out said everything she did is just making fun of the industry and has proven she's a very capable musician before

That's not to say her work as Ke$ha doesn't suck

Since ticket sales and hard data account for 'hardly trustworthy' evidence to master debater Havoc: Women buy or rent just as much shitty, mindless action garbage as men do. I am telling you this from real life experience. Women are just as stupid and idiotic with what they like as people with penises. They do not trend away from stupid shit for some mysterious reason; men and women are equally fucking stupid. That's the point.

The question isn't whether people enjoy subjective pieces of media. If you start nitpicking which shitty dumb Action movie one person likes or another you're just getting into genre blending.
My sister loves Sin City and Kill Bill but thinks the equally mindless Fast and the Furious movies are stupid wastes of time. So she does like action movies and will go to see them of her own volition. You seem to be buying into the very stereotypes Nepsotic unironically spewed into the OP; 'Even if hard data disagrees, I still think girls don't like BOY movies!' Well, you're wrong.

The problem isn't that depictions like this exist at all, the problem is that it is the industry standard, done practically on autopilot. There's only one model of storytelling being used by games and other media that feature such portrayals, and they are dominant. And it's not like writers are restricted to the paradigm, we can do better, it just requires more thought and effort.

The realism argument is a trap. I've played games where you see women being abused, variously part of the background, story or a side quest where you might intervene, or even watch it happen in all its gruesome detail. Even when it is portrayed as wrong or tragic, both the perpetrator and victim are one dimensional devices that serve the player character as a source of, say, XP and morality points. We don't see the consequences of the incident for either character, once they've served their purpose of establishing atmosphere or providing an unscripted XP boost, they're gone. And the justification for this portrayal? "Realism". Apparently it's one of the few aspects of reality that must make it into such media, but not so realistic as to portray the actual consequences. There are cleverer and less problematic ways to portray and critique abuse, even in games, but such instances are significantly rarer that the shittier portrayals are.

It is also demeaning to the audience to insist that they won't be able to handle or enjoy anything besides or in addition to what they are already getting, or won't be able or willing to identify with a PC of a different gender than themselves. Bringing up the unwillingness of publishers to take so-called "risks" (as though depicting half of the human race as anything more than background decoration, victims and plot devices is risky) is not a way to excuse the issue, it is itself part of that issue and thus something to criticise and fix.

The media influences the values of society, it doesn’t represent. It only represents the opinions of the creators, and there’s plenty of evidence that creators are willing to force their views on society to influence people.


As BM has just said, “it’s like that in real life” is not a sufficient reasoning. It’s a cop-out, an excuse to maintain the status quo. Perhaps “actiony” people do tend to be male in real life, but why does that need to be reflected in fiction? And on a deeper note, why is there that expectation in the first place?

Little girls in Japan love the shit out of shows about other little girls beating monsters up.

Even though their culture is far more male-orientated than the West.

I myself am a fan of Legend of Korra. It's Wikipedia page has this gem:

I'm not going to pretend the little girl cartoons I watch are perfect but Korra has some serious issues.

Also partially related; I was just now watching an series called Kaleido Star and this line made me think of this issue.

I'm not even going to start explaining why with offends me.

The audience also includes adult males. I could be wrong on that though.

I have a feeling children don't see gender as prominently as adults.

I'm actually interested in which issues you see

Book 1 had an insane amount of issues and there's no getting past that, book 2 started getting rid of the issues prominent in book 1, and book 3 I can't say I saw anything that stood out as particularly problematic except maybe how Mako and Bolin's grandma obviously had very traditional and conservative views on things

I am about to watch book 3, book 1 was... okayish, I wouldn't have continued watching it if I hadn't loved Avatar. Book 2 made up for it though- this got way off topic.

Book 3 has been the best thus far. It's definitely worth the build up, I feel, because it had really good pay-off. I'M SO PROUD OF JENORA

Is it the phrasing?

You talk as if film makers have some reactionary agenda. No one is saying that current gender roles have to be reflected in fiction, but they undoubtedly have an influence on it. When people write gangsters, or secret agents, or soldiers, or whatever, do you think the fact that they are more likely to make them male is due to some desire for the status quo, or because their perceptions of such people are shaped by reality?

It's little more than a century since women's suffrage? Social change happens slowly? Whatever it is, it's probably a bit more complex than 'duh media'.

I thought Joe was the only one here who watched books.