Well, that was entertaining.

For the record: Yes, they are noticeable in-game with 1080p resolution. Straight off the bat, it catches your eye. But it didn't exactly break the immersion, I simply turned to my fiancé and asked what she thought they were, and we sat there for about two minutes until we figured they were advertisements for other indie games. Then we were right back into the story. Simple as that. They were about as intrusive as a loading screen, or a "PRESS X TO JUMP" banner.

This discussion really ignited though, and I can't fathom why. It's a commercial. So what? An unpaid commercial at that. This dispute makes as much sense as complaining there are commercials while watching TV, or midway through a YouTube video (especially if you want to deal the "immersion card"). Sure we could start bashing our heads against the keyboard until someone heeds our torment, but in the end, they are there for a reason. A necessary evil, if you want to be melodramatic. TV has them to fund their entertainment; YouTube is much the same; New 'n' Tasty is a the product of an independent company, and they consider the only way to survive in the industry (without a benefactor) is to support other independents, who will do so in turn.

Will I be checking out the other games? Nope. Oddworld is the only gaming franchise I touch, due to simple lack of time. Will others? Probably.

I do hope, in the event of an Exoddus redux, that JAW considers an alternative form of product placement, but I'm not going to boycott the game if they stick to their guns.

Definitely. In this case, though, those people especially are in a position to impact people's impression on the game, which could hurt them a bit sales-wise. That's an objective downside to that decision. An objective benefit to that decision is that those advertised games get more exposure.

The point of conversation is which outweighs the other, a completely subjective opinion, which is the reason you can have a debate on the topic. The point of the main menu suggestion was to, hopefully, get more people to agree that the benefits outweigh the downsides. That's only a good thing.

------@KJJ

Really to me, it's the fact that I can bypass any of those commercials by just getting the source material. If I watch Pulp Fiction (yes I love this example) on TV, I'd have to endure a number of commercials.

In the same way, I might have to watch a couple ads on youtube to watch through gameplays of New n Tasty. The difference is, even when I buy the game, I can't escape the ads.

Well, there's a certain flaw in that statement, if you want to get technically—and for the sake of this ongoing debate, I might as well throw it into the crucible as well.

Technically you only paid half the price for New 'n' Tasty, as JAW has bypassed the benefactor, the distributor and the retailer. The same game, under the influence of all these exterior costs, would easily be priced at $60, maybe $50 if you're lucky (for the record, using AUD). This game would not have the need for in-game commercials, because they would be financially stable. JAW is not, at least not at the same level. They are an independent publisher, which means they have to seek alternative methods of exposure, and in this case, its a few simple advertisements to be replicated in the corresponding games.

So, pick your poison. I can sympathise with buying DVDs/Blu-Rays to avoid commercials, I do it too—as a matter of fact, I don't watch TV because I loathe the format. But when it comes down to the cold hard facts, there's a simple distinction here.

By removing the ads, Oddworld Inc. would also be removing their creative control over the project. Sure, hand it over to a benefactor, get a huge marketing campaign, rid the world of those intrusive commercials we all hate so much, and when it comes time to show their almighty investors the project in-development, this will be the response: "Yeah, that's great. But can you make Abe more … human? Oh, and put a sidekick in there, maybe a dog-like creature. Add a tutorial mode too, we need to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Trust me, I'm paying your bills, I know what I'm saying."

An extremely exaggerated example, but it's the truth (as a matter of fact, I borrowed part of the quote from Sherry McKenna). So what would you rather? A more expensive game that doesn't stick to Lorne's vision 110%, or a less expensive game completely under Lorne's control with all of the funds going back into the development of future instalments?

In-game advertisements, hidden in secret areas, and mixed into Oddworld-related advertisements, which you see for two seconds at a time and do not in the slightest hinder your gameplay experience AT ALL (save the most petulant of us), are a small price to pay for the greater good.

For the record, as I'm not sure it's clear from the discussions back and forth: no money changed hands for the cross-promotional billboards in New 'n' Tasty. That should be relatively obvious given one is for JAW's own Gravity Crash and another is for Matt's (NnT's Game Designer) own indie project.

As has been stated elsewhere, the idea of the cross-promo stuff was borne from a mutual appreciation and respect for other indie developers, all/many of which we've met, shared ideas and tech solutions with, and dig their games. The idea was started after E3 2013.

These are developers that sacrifice everything (as we did in some cases) to get their games out there. The least we could do was show the world the games exist.

I definitely understand their unwillingness to be under the thumb of a large publisher, and their means to that end, in creating somewhat of a symbiotic web of indie/AA titles and developers. I'm not asking for these promotions to vanish entirely, I just disagree with how they were implemented in this game. I wouldn't have any problem with trailers or demos in the extras section of the main menu. In fact, actual trailers would be much more effective promotions than a quick glimpse of the box art (or whatever the digital equivalent is), and are more likely to be seen by a wide array of players, and not just those that are adventurous or knowledgable enough to reach the secret areas. Thanks to their inclusion by JAW, I may get turned on to a game that maybe I hadn't heard about, or previously wasn't interested in.

My problem with this situation isn't the ads themselves, but where they appear. There are even trailers for other movies on the very DVD I bought to avoid commercials. I don't mind that, because the difference is that once I press play, it's just Pulp Fiction from then on out. I'd just like to see JAW follow that method.

I truly do respect that. It's great to see hard working independent developers and publishers banding together synergistically. Really my only gripe is that the promotions are inside the game itself. Once I start a new game, I just want to be in Oddworld.

And really, it isn't a really big deal. You could've put them on every single escapee board in the game and I still would've purchased it on day one of its PC release. The faithfulness and the respect for the original truly continues to impress me, and I think that's why the ads struck me that hard. It's more a matter of principle than anything. It's a trend I'd rather not see continue to grow in the future of the industry, and each game that includes them helps that trend to grow.

At the end of the day, it's a small thing, and I have zero doubt that I'll continue to support Oddworld for as long as it's alive. If it were done just a tiny bit differently, and weren't in the gameplay, I wouldn't have any complaints, and I'm sure a lot of people would be a bit happier. Just a small effort of placing them in the game menu would make a big difference to many people. It just seems like a very easy way to score back points with fans with those same principles I hold.

Keep up the good work, JAW. Can't wait to see what's next for you guys, and for Oddworld!

Noted.

They are in with other 'fake' ads for Tasty Treats and Abe Wanted posters scrolling past, they're never on their own or stationary, never take up more than a certain percentage of the screen estate and are always in secret areas, but I get your point.

Really, we thought people would really dig the way they'd been implemented and would really get why we did it the way we did, but I guess we read that wrong with the feedback from some.

I think it's a really great idea, but I'm sadly inclined to agree the execution wasn't great. However, it doesn't keep me up at night funnily enough.

Honestly, if the original weren't so close to me, it wouldn't really matter much to me. So I'm definitely on the far side of that anti-ad spectrum for this title in particular. And really, the ads in New n Tasty were done with more finesse than any other in-game example I've seen. If in-game ads were abolutely mandatory, the way you guys did it would have been undoubtedly the best way possible.

No, what it is, is that people are just getting real fucking arsey over some tiny detail that appears in the game for seconds, in fact I didn't even know what the ads were for until somebody pointed out that they were other indie titles. It really don't bother me, they adverts are subtle and blend into the background well. This whole thing about Oddworld being against selling out and al this crap, well, no, Oddworld is about the little guy triumphing, and JAW and OWI are simply using a successful series to help give other indie developers a little bit of help with some free promotion.

Some people just need to grow the fuck up, seriously, would removing the adverts really make the game play any better?

Just think if you were an indie developer, already on a tight budget, if a developer of a game that anticipated to be a hot seller approached you and said, hey, would you like to advertise your game inside ours free of charge? You wouldn't say no would you!? It's free promotion!

This forum is beautiful.

Jenny, interesting you percieve indifference as being "grown the fuck up"

Really this is about acieving the exact same goal they set out to achieve, but without upsetting as many people. It's hard to really justify an argument against that aspect of it.

A tiny detail can make a big difference to some people. The negative comments on this subject by reviewers are evidence of that.

Like I said, at the end of the day, it's a small thing. And it would only take a small adjustment to make a nice improvement, to me and others, by migrating them to the main menu, that's all.

We've only really seen it as a negative from one review. Could you point out the others please as it's something I'm keen to investigate?

Ta.

Also: re main menu. I'm assuming you're referring to a series of trailers? That's exactly what we wanted to avoid. The idea between the indies was to incorporate small items of each others' games across, and in ONNT's case this was via the Mudokon count displays.

I don't think putting it in the main menu would have worked either. It doesn't seem like people are going to go trough the trailers if they are included in a submenu.


Just by curiosity has anyone seen in game ads for NnT in the other games?

I'll have to do some digging to find the particular video reviews I'm referring to, but the Gamespot review I assume is the one you're aware of. I do think it's a neat concept for a handful of games to all reference one another in-game.

Out of curiosity, how are the other games promoting each other? I, myself would probably prefer if all those games just kept those promos in their respective main menus, but that's just my general dislike for advertisements creeping into videogames.

Really I just keep coming back to the thought of playing New n Tasty 15 or so years from now and seeing Secret Ponchos or Galak Z in the background during a 100% run.

Obviously though, not everyone is going to share my opinion.

Aye, but what if someone who's never played NnT before plays it 15 years from now, sees the add for Secret Ponchos, buys it and loves it?

Surely that would justify their placement in the long run?

Or there could be a patch in the future to remove the in game adds when the other games become unavailable, but that would be pretty pointless effort on JAW's side.

Or even better, a patch to make up to date adds to current games. :p

You've got me there! Really, it isn't a deal breaker, just something I'd rather be without. i felt much more strongly against them before I knew the circumstances of the cross-promotion deals.

Also, if you were concerned about no one checking a "promotions" section, you could always throw the trailers/teasers in the "movies" section.

Again though, this isn't about teasers or trailers. It's about support and solidarity with fellow developers. The last thing we wanted to do was bundle in a load of trailers.

And yeah, the Gamespot review appears to have marked the game down for the inclusion of the cross-promo things, which is a shame, but I've not seen it mentioned (as a negative, at least) in other reviews.

I think once you've been involved with producing a game like this (or the others) it makes a lot more sense.

Again though, all feedback is noted.

I don't think any others are out.

Ha. Jump down off that cross, man. I'm sure the game developer salary that you earn can buy you a better bed to sleep on. No need to martyr yourself today.

Was just waiting for you to move over.

Let's cuddle. We can spoon, but no dry docking.

Don't be such a fucking stinge, OANST, and buy some lube for God's sake.

It's my butthole! My rules!

It's funny how OANST is pretending that he has no problems with the ladies (even mentiones his "awesome sex" at every occasion) but after all he offers to cuddle with any random person. Fishy.

Random persons do the best cuddling.

You act like someone who was being touched as a kid. And liked it. You sick fuck

I wasn't supposed to like it?

Alex clearly identifies himself with your butthole. You need to respect his love for it, and take his preferences into account.

So people should design their work around what's going to get them high review scores?

Bye-bye, Shawshank Redemption!

I think SoBe machines were better integrated in those landscapes than ne 'n' Tasty's advertisement.

I'm not an expert on digital distribution or gigglybytes, but this (rather blunt) solution offered by some of the other forum members seems like it would add quite a bit of weight to the size of the game. Would this impact the cost of uploading it to digital markets to compensate the additional bandwidth? I'd imagine in this area, the idea is to keep the file size as low as possible, so a couple of low-res advertisments seems like, yunno, the better option.

Also, what games come with trailers these days!?