Well said... but can you please define 'extranthropical'?

I was going to say ‘outside of the anthroposphere’, but apparently that word-I-made-up already has a meaning in exactly the field of science I allegedly study, so I shall say ‘outside of humanity; in a species that is not human’.

If you discount dolphins, chimps and gorillas from sapience, you've got to discount some low-functioning humans too.

Which isn't surprising, since once again we are imposing discrete terms on a natural world made up of gradients.

Are you talking about severely retarded or insane people? I guess they could be discounted, but I'm still not sure what the full definition of sapience means.

and another incredibly dull generalisation by Ziggy.

yes, lets rule out all severely retarded and insane people, because we all know they're pretty much the same thing and are all as thick as pig shit.

you astound me.

Well, chimps can have the intelligence of small children, can't they? Of course, that intelligence is used elsewhere.

Like ripping off the hands and feet and balls of men who dare walk in their lairs. I think we should kill all the chimps really, they're a bunch of bastards.

Since when have chimps had lairs? They make nests and sleep together as a group. They are intelligent enough to make a pecking order with an Alpha Male.

Lairs.

There are no chimp lairs.

Anyway, what about Pigs? Pigs can have the intelligence of a small human child, and we eat those in pretty much every culture (with one big nosed exception).

I believe he said lairs as in a habitat. Just that.

However, pigs evolved to, and are adapted to being a just a four-legged animal with no opposable thumbs :). While chimps can use tools. Thus, their minds are better developed for a lifestyle like our own.

Chimps also have lying, rape and xenophobia. I'd say they're already well on their way to being human.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

Is there any species that exchanges items? Like a palm leaf for a banana (or something of that nature)?

You'd be hard pressed to find a mammal that doesn't rape, the difference is that it's socially unacceptable to chimps, gorillas, humans, dolphins etc etc.

When I was younger my mom's boyfriend brought his dog over for the night and it attempted to rape my dog. That was traumatic.

Chimps have appeasement. That's the more primitive version.

True, it's everywhere in the animal kingdom.

I wasn't aware that chimps lied though. Any examples?

If a low ranking chimp spots, say, a tasty-looking banana and a dominant male appears, they may pretend they haven't until the other one leaves. The purpose being, of course, to stop the dominant chimp taking the banana.

Clever little chimp. Of course, that little chimp could rip me open, but still.

I also heard that studies also revealed that chimps started using more rudimentary 'tools' in the last few decades. You know, for foraging for food and such.

Crows lie. They deliberately deceive other crows, and sometimes human researchers. They also craft tools for multiple purposes, and use multiple tools in sequence for a single task.

F'rexample?

#4 of this Cracked article:

In ancient Rome crows were a sign of greatness.

But the thing is... They don't have opposable thumbs.;)

They have beaks. You can do a lot with a beak.

I know you're a fan of chickens but arms, legs and hands can do a lot more. Sure, the brain power can be roughly the same but it's about lifestyles. A chimp is better adapted to do certain things.

It's actually representative. I wouldn't call myself a fan of chickens. And the combination of beak and feet is a surprisingly good tool creation combo.

I would say it's even more impressive that crows can use tools without opposable thumbs.

There are a lot more videos on Youtube, but how can you go past David Attenborough?


Also, I once saw a falconry display that showed off how the bird used a stone to crack open an egg that had particularly thick shell. That was cool too.

I was just kidding because of your avatar xD. And a crow would never be able to create tools the way a humanoid ever could.

I once saw a falconry display that included a crow that did not belong to the falconer. It was a wild crow that simply turns up for each show, does a bit, then goes home after payment. The show stops for the winter, but the first day it is shown again next summer, he's back. If he's ever not there, the falconer just calls "Mr Crow!" across the fields and he comes back before the show has finished. All organisms must work for their food, and this one has independently invented performance as one of its means.

I remember when everyone was congregating around the show area for one of that day's showings, I was watching that crow just sitting there, hanging around with intent. I was already sure it would be involved, but it had no leg ring or leather coil. Is it wild? Is it tame? I couldn't work it out, but the falconer explained.

Brilliant. So crows have employment, and performance arts? They're my favourite 'intellegent' species (quotation marks simply to avoid argument over the definition) by far, but I'd never heard that. And unlike lots of animals that can use tools, the ability to create them too shows something must be going on inside that feathery noggin. One experiment featured a piece of food in a long tube, a piece of straight wire and a crow. The crow bent the end of the wire into a hook (as was said, beak & claws is a pretty good combo), and proceeded to fish the food out of the end of the tube. Nate's video probably showed an equivalent natural situation, but I couldn't be arsed to watch it.

Sure, they had to show the crow a piece of curved wire first, but it's still impressive.

Also octopuses. Pull switches, open jars, squirt handlers, predict football results... They can do it all.