That's the ideal and it's been made possible due to the free society we live in, but you're challenging centuries old cultures and beliefs here. Is it any wonder they see it as an attack?
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They should cry more.
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I actually think both tactics are necessary, but not at the expense of the totally free exchange and critique of ideas.
Incidentally, Jesus and Mo, the webcomic. |
What the fuck's with you and your necessary tactics?
Do you seriously think what people believe is mad because it's not the same as what you believe? |
It's mad because they have absolutely no reason to believe it other than having someone tell them that it's true. It makes no logical sense. It makes no historical sense. And it's vastly morally bankrupt.
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It makes sense to them, and they're the ones it matters to, not you.
Unless of course they're maniacal religious people. Then we're screwed. |
But it only makes sense to them because they haven't really looked at it objectively. And if that's all it was I'd be fine with it. If it was only people believing in a beautiful afterlife for themselves then I could care less if it makes any sense or not. But that's not all it is. Their beliefs affect my life. They affect the lives of millions of children all around the world. And they do so in a negative way.
I know that this is mostly a bullshit argument on my part, but most of you people can't really know what it's like to live through actual religious persecution. I lived it. I was beaten, literally and figuratively, by my mother, my classmates, and other adults at the church for years. I used to contemplate suicide as a child, and I don't mean the "mopey douchebag" kind of suicide contemplation. I mean the "how the fuck do I get out of this" type of contemplation. Religion is the greatest evil that this planet has ever seen because it gives the people who adhere to it the idea that they are just. The only way to combat it is to educate people. |
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But you don't educate people by making fun of who they believe in. |
Sometimes you do. The Daily Show, for instance, has proven to be a powerful tool for educating those on the cusp of becoming right wing assholes.
As for my usage of the word "combat", well it's a war. It's an ideological war that the religious cannot possibly win. They don't have the means to win it (cogent argument) and their numbers dwindle with each generation. They still have quite a bit of manpower, that's true. But studies show that every generation has a steady increase in the number of atheist/agnostic people. That's reassuring. Now, the object of my saying these things isn't to offend. With some people it is. But for my part, I say these things with the sincerest hope that just one person will say "Huh, I guess that doesn't make sense", and then pass that desire to learn more on to others and their own children. |
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The reasons are genuine to you, but not to them.
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Oh, bollocks to that. They're either true or they're not. Reality continues as such regardless of who notices.
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So who gets to decide whether their religious beliefs are true or not?
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It's not about who, it's about evidence. That's what would emerge from the free exchange of ideas unhindered by meaningless concerns. For example, Catholic dogma (and individual Catholics will choose whether or not to accept it, not all behave as automata on this stuff) demands that Eucharists actually change into the actual flesh of Christ. This is patently untrue, we can observe this. There is also the wonderful opportunity for ridicule in the implication that baked wheat goods are, upon the chanting of some magic words, a manifestation of their god. No one gets to tell me that that isn't hilarious.
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The student is telling me to get some ice cream and have an early night. |
EDIT: WoF posted. Read this as a reply to BM.
Exactly, individual people choose what to believe. And that's what I'm talking about. If it doesn't affect you, why should you care what they choose? And what about people who firmly believe, and would swear on the Bible, that God has talked to them? |
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So you think it's mad because it's foreign to you? Ah well, I guess most people are like that.
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Sure, criticise militant religionists all you like. But don't tar all of them with the same brush. :
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In overall summary to both OANST and BM: You forcing your views on religious people is just as bad as them forcing their views on you. Sure, you think that you're in the right because your opinions can be backed up by logic and rational arguments. But they think the same thing too. |
The dialogue I propose, or rather, the environment I propose in which such dialogue is permitted to occur without a load of useless interfering chaff (such as "why are you doing this?") would see to who actually has the logic and rational arguments. I don't want to force anything, I just want to remove this ridiculous special protection afforded to religious idea just because they are religious. I still can't believe you guys buy into that!
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Yes! I'm not saying otherwise. I said right at the beginning (or meant to) that I respect people, and I respect their rights, including the right to believe whatever. That is distinct from respecting ideas. It is not my goal to harass anybody, but anyone should be able to publicly criticise any idea without a deafening chorus of "you big meanie!" or being marked out for death. Those criticisms may be wrong or otherwise objectionable. Fine. Respond in kind! It's a two way street.
And I'm not so sure that most beliefs are genuinely harmless. |
Oh yeah, I know most practises associated with religions are harmful and I never claimed that we should just let those lie in the interest of tolerence.
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But if I have a television show, or an article, or a book, I can damn well say whatever I want in it. It's my venue. If you think that what I say is disrespectful, or that it's wrong then maybe you shouldn't watch, listen, or read it. Or do. Watch, listen, or read, and then call, or write to explain to me why I'm wrong. That's okay, too. But you don't get to tell me what I can or can't say in my own venue. I won't come into your church and start screeching about you being wrong. Hell, I won't even go on the 700 Club, and do that. I am being respectful. |
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I agree with Nate's first point. It is my belief that not everyone's prayers are answered, perhaps God is busy fending off African starvation? Maybe he's preparing for the apocalypse =) but when I pray, I shit you not when I say they sometimes get answered in some shape or form.
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Yesterday I prayed that I would be alive today.
ZOMFG, GUYS |
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Yes, I'm sure the grand creator of the universe puts his plans on hold at our whims, and that our telepathic hotline to said creator is required to inform him of our desires.
And I'm sure those "answers" would not have happened anyway. I remember when I was young and superstitious I wished for things all the time. And some of those wishes came true, many years later. Irrefutable proof of a (lazy) guardian genie, or probability over time? None of my demands for the laws of physics to be suspended in my favour where met. :
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I dislike religion, the main reason being it provokes people to have loads of really boring arguments.
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