I personally don't think of religion as what people would consider "the truth". There are to many idiotic things in the bible that are physically impossible to happen. Magically healing people by touching them? Never going to happen. And plus, is there anything from the Roman history that says anything about some guy calling himself Jesus running around and healing people? Overall, i don't beleive religion. I more or less think that some of the explanations of science make more sense then some old great "god" that is NAMED god screaming to himself "Let there be day and night!" and randomly creating creatures on only ONE planet, but creating dozens and thousands of others that possibly have no inhabitants on them. And about the whole lucifier/satan thing, aparently lucifier was a priest that was trying to stop the spread of christianity so they considering him a evil person, and i'm not saying i think this is true, but it does make some sense to the reasoning for the devil.
Oh yeah, and OANST, are you athiest or are you christian? Or any other type of religion? edit: sorry for being a bit off topic, just felt like talking about my beliefs. Yet another edit: (part of) my family is christian, but that doesn't mean that I "Rebelled" from them. And yes, I typed this because I know you will say something about rebelling against your parents |
I think you can say the same with most non mainstream religeons that are around today, and aithesim
Or for most fads/ trends in general. My mum's freind claims she is a pagan, but when I question her on it, she reveals that she knows nothing about it, and is only trying to be different, and attends moon circles because she has nothing better to do. But this is disgusting, to think that people change their own beliefs, and others purley for the sake of attention, popularity, being different, etc. Yes I'm aware that there are athiests that are athiests bnecause that's what they realy believe in, for example, but there's alot who are purley so for being different and giving an up yours to the God they used to believe in because of how they think their life sucks. It's not about people pondering their world and giving a rational decision on what they believe in anymore, it's about doing what everyone else does, or doesn't do. And you can say the same for most of the other religeons that aren't mainstream. Then again, there are people of mainstream religeons (e.g. christianity) purley because they were told to believe it, and that brings up the questions, do they rationally think abotu their beliefs either, or do they believe what they're told? Are they just as bad, but just don't appear so because they're mainstream? Well, aslong as these religeons don't harm or harrass others, then we shouldn't have to worry. |
Yeah, that's all true, and the people are told to beleive in it are pretty much brainwashed. But yeah, sense christians are of a mainstream religion it's okay to "Brainwash" people at a young age, or they think it's okay.
But I think that if people beleive in something they should beleive in it because they think it's real, not because they think it's fun. |
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If I moved into an apartment with some friends you wouldn't find me trashing the place just cus I pay the most rent. :
From now on I am a devout follower of Cthulhu. Because I find it interesting. I like the idea of complete freedom no longer trapped in the black and white world of laws vs chaos and good vs evil. I know my religion was made up in a book, but then again which ones haven't? ...okay I'm done with Cthulhu. I have to remember too much stuff. I'm going back to Happy-Happyism. |
Curse you BM. You have enough rep as it is and yet you insist on making me give you more.
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My sister has this friend. His name is Steven, and he's a batshit insane vegan. Seriously, he spews pretentious bullshit all the time and is a huge pain in the ass to talk to (hipster fucktard), but even he wouldnt say something like "LITTERING IS WORSE THAN RAPE!" It's just stupid. Ignorant, even. |
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Also, I honestly think people should be open and let others be. So what if wicca is stupid. At least it's not Scientology. Wicca promotes 'good' behavior I think.. Except the whole believing-in-a-fantasy part. if they don't become bad people from that, then at least I have no problem with them. Same goes for any religions. As long as people don't judge me, I wont judge them. But a quick note to Shaman: If you really believed in your stuff, you wouldn't be so defensive about it. Defensiveness is often a sign of one's knowledge being challenged, and that you wanna hold on to what you know. |
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If there's one thing I dislike, it's a preacher trying to knock off religion ....
Why bash someone for their religion? Why would anybody here try and prove Wicca to be stupid or nonexistant? If anything, that makes YOU all stupid for trying to preach like that. While I'm no Wiccan, I will TRY to understand them to some extent. In a way, they are similair to Native American Shamanism (btw, shamanism be my belief as well), they CAN (And usually do) 'pray' and wish peace for others. That's what I know of Wicca. While their ideas of deitys can be physically impossible, that doesn't mean they're all crazy cooks (Same for other religious person for that matter). Of coarse, we should ALL know that every religious person has their own views of their belief and shouldn't make those stereotypes true. Look at it this way, I appreciate scientists and their work, but the STEREOTYPICAL forms of science makes them out to think anything they don't know is nonexistant case closed. But when you look at someone who follows what they wish to believe, it makes just as much sense as science. Anybody can say "God doesn't exist" and back that sentance up with facts. But anybody can also say "God DOES exist" and back that up with many facts as well. There's no point AT ALL in trying to make another religion look fake because EVERYBODY has opinions on the world. And ANY of these opinions can, in some form, be true. Science is what humans physically know. But beliefs in Gods, Spirits, Totems, those are what humans try to spiritually know. What the Hell am I saying? Science IS a religion! ALL religions are opinionated, just as much as reality is. Yes. I went off topic for a paragraph. But I'm a person that thinks people that throw rubbish at other religions are all hypocrital jackasses. But .... that's merely my own debatable belief .... |
There's so much wrong there that I can't even begin to address it without derailing the topic with an overlong essay (and I have stuff to do today), so I'll limit my response (for now) to this little gem:
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The second contradiction you make is more of a hypocrisy. You claim to try to understand Wiccans (as if examining and criticising a belief system is not doing that), but make no attempt to understand its critics and just call them stupid. Bravo, sir. Bravo. |
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On topic (Hah) I rather like the idea and principle behind pantheism, but going and making a religion out of a nice idea is just daft, I mean not that it hasn't been done before....*Cough* Abraham, *Cough* Constantine *Cough* Muhammed *Cough* Siddhathar Guatama *Cough* Excuse me, I appear to be rather unwell today. |
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As for Christianity stealing the appearance of Pan for Lucifer, this is also false (to an extent). Not once in the bible is the devil referred to as being ugly, horned, or cloven-hoofed. He was an angel of the highest order and so beautiful that you could hardly stand to look upon him. The reason that people attribute traits such as a bifurcated tail and red hue derives from peoples need to see things as absolutes. Evil must ugly. Good must be beautiful. |
i completely respect your opinions ok.
If i have came across as being defensive i apologise...i do believe it. but have always had a habbit of saying the wrong thing. |
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Also, popular theological opinion (of that period certainly) would cite the beast in Revalations as an incarnation of Satan, and that certainly isn't described flatteringly. |
The Pan/devil thing, like so much else, was probably derived from a socio-political campaign alienating and vilifying pagans.
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And nothing I have ever read has ever seen the beast from Revelation as being Satan. And I have read quite a bit on the subject. :
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Don't make the mistake of assuming people from history are simple minded caricatures of human beings. They have scandals and politics and commentary and machinations and popular culture just like we do.
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Christians did indeed see themselves as the oppressed; and as time-tested tactics tell us, people who are acting in desperation are the easiest to control when a figure of 'stability' or 'leadership' takes the reigns. "Come children, we have exactly what you need." Using the very essential basics of moral conduct that religion teaches at its foundation, and adding in a lot of extra hoo-ha, the whole resulting 'belief system' becomes something that followers cannot only just swallow, but are also more than willing to do so through its veil of 'good intention.' So can we look at the ruling class on a quest for power? Could we consider that controlling man's mind is indeed absolute power? We look at history and all its accounts of man's 'leaders,' whether they are religious leaders or other social leaders and, exactly as you put it, the 'ideas' and 'beliefs' tend to have a way of working their way down through the ranks either through ways that are directly 'forceful' (believe or die).... or through less direct yet similarly effective ways which are to make the beliefs or ideas a 'social trend' ... so that they overtake the mind/individual by what's been termed 'tyranny of the majority;' the idea that what is commonly accepted/socially acceptable is right. The Bible does not have to depict Satan. When this idea written of Satan in the Bible is 'elaborated upon' by religious leaders, the follower's minds do all the work in making the association. So then the critical question in response to this is then: why has the stereotype of Satan been the horned devil being that it has been for centuries... and where have we seen this figure before? This goes much deeper than 'black and white' terms of ugly vs beautiful that it may appear to be to you on the surface. Where did the depiction come from? How can absolute power be attained by letting other 'options' or 'belief systems' stay available to those you are trying to control? Look at modern times.... are we still seeing this today? :
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However, I think the idea that there was some sort of socio-political plan both gives too little and too much credit to the Christians. |
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Also, Kastere's comment has to be taken with a grain of salt since he decided to join the talks for a bit. |
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Or GOD forbid I'm turning into you. :
There's no room for that in the middle of a serious discussion... but then the whole 'venue' here (OWF) is not exactly all that serious; those are the breaks I suppose. The only thing I can begin to extract from what you said about 'trendiness' is what I refer to 'spiritual fluffiness.' This is the taking of long established traditions and turning them into something 'modern' and 'trendy' for the sake of turning a profit... kind of like the 'new age' movement; go into a 'trendy' new age shop and spend all day buying crystals and incense and other 'fluffy' and practically meaningless things. This is spirituality? No. It's trendy fluffy nonsense with no connection to our past heritage or anything. It's empty.... but the buying makes people think that they are doing something truly 'spiritual' through the action. |
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