You're right. I think the issue here is that the Orthodox churches aren't so well-represented outside Europe. Patrick Vykkers lives in New Zealand so he couldn't be expected to include them.

Actually, I do know about the Orthies. I merely forgot to include them. After all, how many Sufis, or any Muslims do you think there are in NZ?

Well, I go to Ewtonville Baptist Church, so I guess you could say I'm Baptist. I like Church of God too though.

Then, my dear, you fit under "Christian-Protestant", as the Baptists are a subdivision of the Protestant section of the Christian religion.

True followers of Christ never say, "Convert or I'll kill you". That's not the way to lead someone to God. You have a choice to make...YOU. You can choose to be happy or sad, go to Heaven or Hell. It's either one or the other. Life (God) or Death (Satan). The choice is YOURS to make.

Christianity is a lot different from other religions. First of all, God hates religion. He only wants a true, sincere relationship with Him. Secondly, His word has a meaningful verse for every heartache, desire, and really any and every occasion. There is no other book on earth like it, nor will there ever be. If you would just take the time to read it, you'd see what I mean. Sure, it's hard to understand sometimes, but we can never fully understand Him. We ARE meant to draw closer to Him though. He loves us and is always ready to forgive, no matter what we've done.

I've done some pretty horrible things in this life, but God forgave me and changed me, most of all, He saved me. I haven't been the same since. He is so unexplainably wonderful and moving.... He's just too much... too beautiful to describe!!! Tears are coming to my eyes right now, telling you this. Trust me, He's like none other. He wants to change you and save you, just like He did me. Isn't that great?! He sent His only Son to die for us, so that we could live forever in Heaven with Him. I want you to go to Heaven too. I love you, even though I've never met you. I know you have a soul. I just want what's best for you, and God is definitely the BEST!

Please don't take any of this as an offense; I am only trying to help you. I'm not saying you have to accept Christ, that's your decision. I just had to tell you this. And, if you ever get to seriously thinking about what I've said, just talk to me about it. I'll be glad to listen and I'll try my hardest to explain any questions you may have. :)

How can God hate religion if by definition believing in him (Cry me a river, feminists) requires at least some form of religion? If by religion you mean ORGANIZED religion, then that's understandable, but a church is an organized religion, so you kinda should get out of something God hates.

I never said they said, "Convert or I'll kill you." They just talk as if I'm killing myself if I don't covert.

It's just the way people tried to convert me, guilt-tripping me and all. It annoys me.

It's great that you can be happy, Hammy. I just don't see it the same way as you.

Ugh, I promised myself that I'd leave this topic alone, but this is just picking at me now.

Actually, what they say is pretty much the equivalent of "Convert or I'll kill you". Some of them have a tendancy to tell you what a horrible person you are and that if you don't repent for those acts and choose their religion, you'll be thrown into an a pit of eternal suffering.

Christianity is basically the same as any other religion. Everyone worships pretty much the same god. The only difference is that that particular god goes by different names (God, Shiva, Allah, Jehovah, etc.).

"His word" isn't technically his word. The bible was written by human beings, meaning that, there is a very high chance that "his word" could ahve been misconstrued and altered by them. For example, I believe that the whole "God hates homosexuals" bit was added int here by a homophobic apostle.

Also, if you would take the time to read the torah, or the koran, you'd notice that they deal with pretty much the same values, and try to teach the same things. They try to teach others to be decent human beings in order for life to be enjoyable for each and everyone of us, whether we be rich or poor, good people or evil ones. They're all basically guidebooks to being a decent human being. Don't ignorantly proclaim that your bible is the best one out there, when you haven't delved into the many others that have been written.

Everyone has done some horrible things in their lives, myself included. But you don't need a religious figure to forgive you for them. All you need is to be a coherent enough person to realize that you've made mistakes, but those mistakes shouldn't prevent you from enjoying your life. That's basically what the belief in god is: a way of convincing oneself that no matter what horrid act one may do, there is always hope to learn from that act, and become a better person despite it. Faith is a motivational tool for becomming a better person, for those who feel that they themselves do not have the ability to do so on their own.

And once again, God is like many others. Stop being so goddamn closed-minded to other religions, and pick up another religion's holy book before making such judgements.

It's kind of hard not to take offense when you downsize other people's religions in such an ignorant manner.

Look, you have every right to believe in whatever you want. But please, just don't tell everyone else that they're wrong just because they don't believe the same thing that you do. Your beliefs are about as valid as the rest of ours. We all have equal proof about what's out there and what created us: close to nil.

I agree with some of your points, but the Qur'an does not teach people to be decent by any standard of humanity. See my sig.

And before someone makes the inevitable "But the OT has bad stuff too!" kneejerk; from an ATHEIST SITE (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....-or-quran.html) and another (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pa...n-Violence.htm)

You have a point. Perhaps the koran wasn't the best example.

Alright, almost every holy book out there teaches people how to be decent human beings.

Alright, I can agree to that. But in many ways, they diverge on the little points. But yes, they are indeed mostly about devotion to their respective deity/ies. Also, all religions simply cannot simultaneously be equally valid, any more than evolution and young Terra creationism can be both true. They are either all false (atheism) or one is true.

How do you know that He's forgiven you? His ways are inneffable and cannot be guessed at by man.

Seems a bit of chutzpah to put words in his mouth.

And you don't see the contradiction in what you just said? Damn...

It's not "Convert or I'll kill you!". It's "Convert or you'll go to hell!".

As it is written in the bible, the basics of the Christian religion is this:

God loves you, cares about you and tries to make you a good person so you can go to heaven and he loves you because you believe in him... but he'll throw you in hell if you don't.

More clear: God says: Either you believe in me... or you go to hell. Either you believe what I have said... or you go to hell.

That's blackmail... yea thats great, living your life being blackmailed. Absolutely f*cking fantastic.

Havoc

How do I know He's fogiven me? Because I feel it in my heart. It's not like any other feeling. You who are downing me and trying to change me will most definitely not. I am sticking to God forever. I wish you would too. He has the power to truly change you. Other things simply cannot do what He does.

Now, I'm just gonna ignore what you all are saying to me, because God doesn't want me to be sad 24/7. But, however, if any of you want the beautiful change I have, give me a pm. I will be very happy to lead you to the true God.

I guess I'm technically nonreligious in the sense I don't believe in any particular god or something, but I do believe in symbols and other stuff that could be considered purely cooincidental. Meh, I really don't know to be honest. I have bills to pay...

One thing I have to say is that any "god" or higher power that would send a person who lived a life of only 80 so years and did some bad shit to an eternal hellfire is complete bullshit. What the **** kind of "infinately compassionate" being would send someone to a lake of fire for all eternity for one or two slip ups that weren't prayed away? You shouldn't have to good out of fear, you should do it out of acquired good will and ethics, and prayer shouldn't be what repents for your wrongs, it should be taking action to correct what you did wrong. I suppose a temporary hell is a better option, like in Hinduism where you stay in hell until all of your bad karma is used up and then you're reborn to get a second chance.

1. The only person who can change you is yourself. If you want to believe you are so worthless that you need an invisible idiot in space who never shows his face to change yourself then go right ahead but keep your delusions to yourself please.

2. I can do what god does. I can write a book, come up with a nice story based somewhat on reality and somewhat of hope and giving it a few thousand years I'll have myself a religion. Cool huh?

3. Do NOT, and I mean NOT, ever AGAIN, try to rub your christianity off on other people or try to convert them on this forum. While I am here that is not allowed, period. Keep your delusions to yourself, if you want to live a dream thats fine but keep other people out of it!!

Havoc

I'm atheist. I don't believe in God. I think it's all a load of crap.

Although, I could be currently following a religion named Jediaism. I have a lightsaber, and am strong with the force.

Ugh, do you know what the feeling really is? It's you realizing that despite what you've done, you have the power to change yourself and even be a better person as a result. And you know what else? You don't need God to be a better person. You can do it on your own. The only difference between you and the other people out there, is that they are mature enough to understand that they alone can change themselves and forgive themselves for whatever atrocities they've committed. They don't need an invisible parental-figure hovering over them, threatetning to banish them into a realm of eternal suffering to motivate them to be decent people.

You are pathetic, I'm sorry. You're ignoring us because you know that we just might have a point. You know that there are flaws in your religion, and what's more, you know that if you keep replying to us, you'll expose them. If you were brave enough to continue replying to us, and expressing your opinions (which really wouldn't be yours at all, but the supposed opinions of your all-knowing imaginary friend), then I'd have the utmost respect for you, regardless of whether or not I agreed with you. But the fact that you won't even discuss this out of fear of realizing that yours isn't the only way jsut completely eliminated whatever respect there was.

Oh, and Havoc, that bit about Christianity being a kind of blackmail is genius. I've never looked at it that way before.

There is an atheist stereotype being reinforced here that I don't much like.

ILH, you say we can't change you but you can convert us? Pure hypocrisy. I'm not bashing you for being religious, that's fine if you are, but don't be hypocritical and try and convert anybody here, it won't work and will just cause anger.

But by the same token, snuzi, don't go saying you're right ILH is wrong. Nobody knows what is right or wrong about the universe. Nobody. Not Hammy, not me, not you.

I wasn't saying that what we believe in is right. I was saying that she's afraid of replying to us because some of the things we were saying just might be right. Perhaps I should have phrased that sentence differently. I'm still standing by what I said earlier. All of us have the same amount of evidence concerning what spawned us: none.

Proof is a purely mathematical concept. You will only find proof within and concerning math.

There is no god. Every religion is wrong. No offence to anyone, but thats my opinion.

But some people don't belive in god but follow god's rules, worth to remember that.

Too bad i can't give evidence to support this quiery

Ugh, fine then evidence. Jesus Christ.

Yeah, you're definitely not trying to start something.

[slig]What?[/slig]

It's what i believe ;p

Indeed. Praise the Lord.

I assume by "we" you mean "universe".

That depends. Which "we" are you referring to?

Way to go Havoc, you've made Snuzi a religion-basher.

Snuzi, I don't give a damn what ILH beleives in. If it makes her happy, kudos to her. But you don't need to be this way toward her. Your post was just a sarcasm-laced rant about her.

If you start losing respect for people because of their religion, you seriously need to look yourself over.

Don't you dare crush this girl's belief when she dosen't want to hear it.

Way to completely ignore my first post about her :rolleyes:.

Let's clear some things up.

First of all, I've always been an anti-religious individual. Havoc didn't make me that way :p.

Second of all, if you read my first post, you'd see that I could care less what ILH believes. It's her life, and she has every right to believe in whatever deity she so desires. What I'm attacking is her hypocritical posts about "helping" us. I don't know about you, but if I had her on my back trying to "help" me, after I had made it abundantly clear that I do not believe in God, I'd have every reason to be angry with her.

Third of all, I'm not losing respect for her because of her religion, you dolt. Read my goddamn post before telling me to look myself over. I said that I have no respect for her because she's a goddamn coward, and won't admit that other people have made very valid points regarding other religions. Instead she feels that she could downsize every other religion out there, ignorantly proclaim that hers the best and the only right one out there, and then just simply return to her little bubble world and ignore everything we have to say in response to her ignorance.

I'm not crushing anyone's beliefs. I just want her to admit that she can't possibly say that her religion, and her God, is the best one out there, when she hasn't so much as read a verse from another holy book, or explored the beliefs of others.

Now now Snuzeh, play it fair. You can't proclaim to say you are right and they are wrong about saying they are right and you are wrong. Still with me? What that means is that you're basically doing the same thing she is, saying that everything you are saying is true and everything else is automatically false. That's exactly what religion does, don't lower yourself to that level.

Mitsur: All I do is state my mind with logic, reason and fact. If other people then go 'well damn, that makes sense, I think I'll go with that!' then go them. Snuzi just agrees with most of the stuff I say, that doesn't mean I turned him into a religion basher. Bashing religion is just as bad as preaching religion, it's just the other way around. But there is a big difference between bashing and stating facts in a harsh way, the latter being what me and Snuzi like to do.

Havoc