'A clone will not have a soul because a soul is a gift from God and only God can make souls.'

So, when the first Cloned human is created and, give it time, there will be one created. She/He will be like a Robot. Okay...so, when you're proved utterly wrong and the person is like everybody else, then does that mean you will start thinking about the "What if...?" factor in your beliefs?

'You still don't understand what a soul really is do ya? Its not a personality. A soul is more complicated than that.'

I always thought it's what shaped your personality. I was going to go on and say that i would have believed that certain personality aspects would have been formed when the Soul jumped from different bodies...but you believe the Soul is created once and then judged. Which, to me, seems a waste of a Soul.

I'm also interested in what you think about people being regressed into their "past lives"? Because then this means that God is letting Souls jump around in different bodies and not taking them back over a certain amount of time. Which would also mean that peoples dedication is been wasted. Which also means lack of a social/fun life. But still.

PA, your faith/beliefs is on par with the people who didn't want local anthesetic...

PA you strike me as being very opinionated. Yes that's right opinionated. You insist that your views and opinions are the right ones for something that's very much a questionmark area. The science of the soul is nonexistant, there is nothing factual there, only various religions and beleifs.

A religion tells you what to think about these scary grey areas. That's why it's so uplifting, because questions about death, souls, and gods are all answered in away that allows you to congregate in an old building every sunday and sing about how great this being you've never seen before is. Have you never even stopped to question your own religion?

Obviously not. You insist that your view is the right one because it's the one that your religion supports. Are you a genuine beleiver who is just educating the word of god? No of course you are not, you're just telling others how to think without even mentioning why it would benefit them. If you're all about christianity, then teach a man to respect his neighbour, love his children, and be kind, forgiving and generous. Let him find his own way in his religious beliefs.

I for one beleive that this entire discussion is completely subjective. If you don't like the idea of eating cloned meat, then write a letter to whoever it is you need to, and demand that cloned meat products be clearly marked and labeled as such. That way you can avoid it. Don't suddenly stop eating something because your nextdoor neighbours friends uncles daughter said that her husband won't eat such and such because it's genetically modified or whatever. Official information is more sound than aunt betty from number 21.

KFC actually uses chicken all right? Just let the retarded urban legend die already! Eating cloned meat is no less ethical than eating meat that was kept in a slaughterhouse. Slaughterhouses will always be disgusting, disturbing places, whats kept in one is secondary. Also, CLONES WILL HAVE SOULS. To be human is to have a soul and God wouldn't deny anybody a soul. Its not a "gift," its a mandatory part of being human. I for one would seriously question the nature of God if he allowed a soulless human to be created.

This KFC using cloned meat stuff is bullshit.

http://www.topsecretrecipes.com/sleu...ds/legend4.htm

Actually, Death, there was an experiment. I think it was the 21 grams experiment [might be a completly different number] but people who died suddenly lost 21 grams. This was said to be the Soul leaving the body.

That 21 grams is probably the air leaving the body.

'That 21 grams is probably the air leaving the body.'

Never proven either way. I hope they do another, modernised, one. But you'll get all those f*ckabillies all saying "No, you can't wait until some random person dies. It's inhumane!!". Sillyness.

Boy, how crazy this whole thing has gotten. This thread is going to resurface again and again and again, I'll bet. The only way to stop the impending madness is to end the thread now. So here are my final thoughts: I agree with Volsung and Death, even though Death doesn't know how to spell "meant". I disagree with paramiteabe, and I have found a new dislike for him upon discovering this super-religious freak side of him.

Okay, trust me, it's time to let this thread die before it can grow into a monster. Just you remember what I said about impending madness!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mean%27t

Sorry, just couldn't resist. :)

Now believe what you want ok I don't give a shit because I know and understand for myself that there is something higher than us and I refer that as to being God. Now I am not a dip shit bible freak whome yells "Praise the Lord every single day as what you ever so constantly think I do. So when I state stuff like what I said before its only my view of what I see in all of our cultures all over the world. And which I conclude that what we as a human race think is right is in reality wrong and we are paying for it. We think we are gods or what ever and that my friends is where the downfall of mankind will happen. Mainly to put my whole belief system that I have created myself into one Paragragh it would be.

We as the Human race are stupid and unwise that we will see our own destruction because we believe we are gods and have every right to rule on high, and create and destroy at will and actually do it. When in reality behind the scenes our true weak self and destruction is envitable in the eyes of the higher being whome created us and loves us. Admit to your wrong doings and life will be fine and you can go on liveing your life to the fullest and have all the fun you want. Just remember make sure we admit that we are wrong. If we don't The Creator the highest of all beings will bring to us punishment through our daily lives. If we just say we are wrong we will be enlightened and gloryfied in the eyes of the high one.

Humility is the key to spiritual enlightenment!

Woowhoo I have my own religion which is more or less every religion all wraped up in one. I call it Humilism! I think that paragragh will be the foundation of my belief system. Anyway back to topic:D

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

For the record, I never said KFC was using cloned meat. They have bred their chickens to be fatter, jucier, and easier to keep. Of course it's real chicken. It's just been modified through breeding.

When I was in my 3rd year of Electrical Engineering, for some freaking reason they took us to a slaughterhouse. And we got to see all of these crazy freaking videos of the way other places do it - to make the slaughterhouses seem better than they actually are. And one of them was the marketing information from KFC with their chickens. Yes could have been changed or altered, but I'm just telling you what I saw with my own two eyes and read reports on, I'm not spewing some 7th grade Urban Legend I read on the Internet. Thanks.

And you're right about the monstrosity that is a slaughterhouse, let me tell you there were some big tough guys with me that wouldn't touch a hot dog for months. I think it was watching the guy that removes the anus' out of cows that did it really. That or the killing floor.

When I read religious posts from religious people, i.e: PA, the Chrostian religion strikes me as a stupid cult that you hear about all the time. It's ridiculous.

I could really go into detail on my opinion on the Christian religion, but I'll most likely offend way too many people to count.

Like I said hard core Christians and I am talking about people whome are constantly saying "praise the Lord!" are Jesus freaks. I mean its one thing to believe in God its another thing to go over board and abuse it. Theres nothing wrong with it but when it come to abuseing that faith then it gets messy.

Im a Catholic not a Christian huge difference!

Well, there's not really a huge difference, is there?
If I remember my history correctly, Catholicism has always been a branch of Christianity, just like the Protestants are a different branch of it. So, unless you're in a very mutated one, then it is part of Christianity.

I'm a Catholic. There's a massive difference between me and you PA, and i wonder why that is.

Animals play God all the time, why can't we?

[and yes, i know we're animals, nobody tell me what i already know. Such as the size of appendages of certain forumers...]

The penis is not an appendage, it's an organ.

'The penis is not an appendage, it's an organ.'

Yeh, i know. That's why i said "appendage" and not "organ". Eww, can you be any filthier.

Oh and by the by, you can spell mean't as meant. Both are equally correct and equally hott.

Mean't is the original and correct way to spell it, and Meant is a derivative, because the spelling mistake happened so often. A testimony to the idiots of this world.

'Meant' looks better anyway.

Okay, point one, I admit that it would appear that Dictionary.com--which I just used earlier today, that site rocks!--says you can spell meant mean't. So it would appear that Death and I are both wrong, or both right, depending on how you look at it. Whatever. This thread has gotten so fscking convoluted, I can barely make out up and down anymore.
Point two: Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. Always has been. So if you are Catholic, you are Christian. It amazes me that I have no religion, yet I know more about how Christianity works than any of my friends, even the devout one who says that Darwin was an idiot and we were created by God--the same one I mentioned in earlier, the paranoid one that's so many -ists, I can't even count them.
Point three: paramiteabe, you say you're not one of those "crazy Jesus freaks", but you sound pretty obsessed. I quote: "...The Creator the highest of all beings will bring to us punishment through our daily lives." That's pretty religiously crazy by my standards. So is referring to God as "the high one", which should be capitalized, by the way.
Point four: The madness! It's coming! I guarantee this thread will go the way of "Ask a Stupid Question" and the other page-crunching juggernauts! And the worst part is, it's not even on-topic anymore! Even this post was a complete waste of space! Please, for the love of...! No, can't use that. How about this: Please, for the love of corn dogs, let this thread die!!!!

TheRaisin, I don't mind people having their say, or voicing their opionions, but what really pisses me off in threads like this, is when some high-and-mighty twixhead comes along in all his shining retardedness declaring that a thread should die.

What if I were to tell you that I think you should die? Would you just run out to your kitchen, get a knife and stab yourself like I asked? No of course not.

Besides making me wish there were some mutation of Godwin's law which described the comparison of flippant ascii-typists to the takers of a human life, (because then I would probably do that less) your post is somewhat hyperbolic.

Despite making a point out of everything in a desperate bid to sum up and bring a close to the discussion, you're taking it way farther than you need to. This is just a light hearted "what if" discussion and you're whinging about its' meandering subject as if it's some loss to you because you can no longer figure out who or what to rant at.

Quite bluntly, who cares? You can talk and speculate about how this thread will die all you want, but in the end you will just be perpetuating a mindless problem that plagues this forum like a plague. Ending threads with speculation on how the thread will end is probably the most ironic and irritating direction any subjective discussion can take. You can easily ruin a perfectly good debate with such short sighted moaning, and you'll probably go out defending it too. In fact, the majority of locked threads are probably due to such insane side tracking.

Why not just let it die through lack of interest? That sure beats the hell outta making the ending of a thread a discussion.

There is nothing wrong with cloneing animals because they don't have souls.
Or wait a minuite to be politically correct they don't have a soul like us as human beings.

Back to topic.

'to be politically correct'

Never be Politically Correct. I loathe PC people. The sort that when you say "Nigger", "Coon", "Jungle Bunny" as an obvious joke you're brandished as 'Racist'. I'm not a Racist. I just make jokes about black people getting uptight about these words and make jokes about the KKK/Racist people.

People have even brandished the Morcombe joke Racist and that's what really fudges me off the most. The joke isn't Racist. The joke's in bad taste. There's a large, pulsating difference between bad taste and Racism.

Also, it is quite biased. A black guy calls a white person a 'Limey' and people laugh. A white guy calls a black person a 'Nigger' and suddenly there's a huge uproar of "RACIST!! YOU SHOULD DIE, YOU'RE SCUM!!". Ugh. F*cking c*nts.

Again, I'm a little lost. I'm assuming that most people here are using a judeo-christian definition of a soul, so it might be that, but why exactly is it that Humans (which are animals) can have souls, but animals cannot. Or if they do (as was alluded above) why are their souls considered so different? I'm just missing the qualifications, I suppose.

That said, I think that my only opposition to eating cloned meat refers way back in this thread to when it was pointed out that most clones are sickly. This is true. We have in no way perfected cloning, so it seems kind of dangerous to switch over to it for our food at this stage. Then again, I have the same type of argument against Genetically modified food. I'm not against it exactly, but it hasn't been tested enough for me to trust it. But that won't stop the multinationals from selling it to us.

Yeah, Volsung, who knows how clones are going to turn out. They could be disease-ridden for sure. I mean, look at Dolly, she was totally messed up and died after it lived around half of a sheep's normal lifespan. Also, what if some super disease arises from a botched cloning experiment and wipes out a fifth of the world's meat supply. Oops. I know KFC doesn't actually clone chickens, but many businesses have their livestock physically altered(beakless chickens to avoid pecking and infighting, for instance), frightened and filled with all sorts of flavor-affecting hormones from being crowded, and pumped up with antibiotics and all sorts of crazy chemicals that they hardly resemble animals anymore.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. You're just making things up now.

No, I'm not making it up. Major suppliers of chicken such as Tyson and Purdue use "beakless" chickens. The beak is partially removed without anaesthia. The reason that this is done is that birds are stored in very small cages at about 3 to six chickens a cage. This leads to psychosis-induced "pecking sprees." The birds are also fed hormones and antibiotics to keep them "healthy" and ready to lay eggs all day long if they are layers. If they're broilers they are fed massive amounts of hormones, antibiotics, and grain mixed up with ground up chicken so that they become fat and ready to eat in less than 2 months. Just because I happen to know how a factory farm works doesn't make me a liar.

There are no such things as "beakless chickens". Without a beak, a chicken cannot eat, cannot prune its' feathers, and cannot breathe properly. It would die within a few days. So yes, it is bullshit.

"When you find yourself in a hole, it might be indicated to stop digging."

The reason why humans are different is because we have dyminion over the animals. The animals are not like us. We may be animals aswell but we are very different from animals in the sense of being not wild life. Mainly the proper termonology is wildlife.

DEBEAKING EXSISTS! Stop calling me a liar, you fascist asshole. The beak is partially amputated by an electric device that resembles a guillotine. Here is a link with a pictures and an article about it.
http://www.upc-online.org/merchandis...factsheet.html.
Or you could simply use an online search engine and find literally hundreds of sites on debeaking. If you don't like it, **** you.

PA, though you decreased your post, I suppose I'll respond anyway.
First off, I doubt it is possible for us to agree on this since our views appear to be fundamentally very different. Nevertheless, I'll state my case.

"Humans have dominion over animals." I cannot argue that we do not subjugate and use animals for our own purposes. However, if the point you're making is that Humans are meant to have dominion over animals, I cannot agree. I see no factual evidence that humans are in any significant way masters of animals. You may argue that we have mastered cats and dogs, but when we look closer, this is no different than the relationship between an elephant and those birds that clean elephants. It is a symbiotic (almost parasitic) relationship. You may quote scripture. For that I have no argument, as all religions and psuedosciences are non-falsifiable. This isn't to say that they are right or wrong; simply that the main points cannot be disproven, due to the inherent vagueness.

"We are very different from animals" This is in only one sense true. All other known animals have definite niches which they are able to subsist within. They are given particular defense mechanisms and abilities to directly suit their lifestyle. We are as of yet the only animal which must rely upon its ability to reason abstractly to live. Possibly dolphins do this as well. I fail to see the relevance having a larger brain affords us spiritually, other than letting us recognize that we have a soul. Surely all that's happened is that we've recognized we have souls, and "wildlife" has not?

It is likely that I'm too close-minded to see why only Humans would have significant souls, but I think the most telling example of our equal footing with other creatures is our handling of the earth. If we were truly meant to dominate the world, would we be destroying it?

I agree with Statikk about the animal cruelty action. Its always good to raise awareness of procedural problems. Especially those with potentially harmful side-effects. Who knows what all those antibiotic, beakless, cannibalistic, internally bleeding chickens do to us after ingestion? My position remains as before More and better testing must be done before cloning can enter the food production staples.

People want to eat cloned animals? Man, if we can't even raise the animals that are around in humane ways what do you think will happen to the clones.
PA: Although humans have dominion over the earth they are supposed to be very careful and mindful of the environment. Being against the environment is basically a sin because we are supposed to manage it for all living things. Messing with the environment is breaking one of God's rules, essentially. Breaking of God's Rule=Sin.

Now comes my point we may have diminion over the animals but we use the power the wrong way. In otherwords diminion over animals we take for granted. And that is what needs to be changed. Its ok to slaughter animals and clone them as long as there is a purpose behind it. If we do it for fun and game then its wrong.

Well, according to you, PA, We have souls because we have dominion over animals, and they don't because we have dominion over them, so if they don't have souls, why the hell shouldn't we take them for granted?
They're there, we can use them to increase human productivity in a number of ways - especially in the current modern society.

No we don't have diminion over animals because we have souls. We have diminion over animals because we were put on this earth with that right.

Notice you said "use them for human productivity." That is a lagit purpose to use animals for slaughter and other things. I am talking about hunting them for game. That is what I mean when I say takeing them for granted is being wrong. Do you understand?

So we use animals the right way as long as its for a purpose and not for game. People whome hunt animals for game thats when its wrong.

And the whole thing on the soul just got way out of context here. So I am not going to get into that anymore. It was too complicated to explan it because the theory is just way out there.

But PA, using your logic, if we were put on this planet to have dominion over animals, surely that gives us the right to use them as we will, for fun during hunts for example?
After all, according to you, they have no souls, so what does it matter if we take them for granted?

It all depends on what you see to be right and wrong ya know? I am just stateing what I believe is right and what I believe is wrong. All that goes into issues of free will and such. We choose to do these things even if they are wrong or not we still choose to live like that.

On the debeaking note, they have also been cases of Featherless Chickens. Which do look kind of amusing. Bless them.

I know you're giving your opinions, but, as a unrelated point, you could not make them seem like facts, and I was only asking why you think that. I'm very aware of you giving your free opinion.

...so, PA:
'what does it matter if we take them for granted?'