How do you reason with a terrorist? No I think that's not the question. The question is "How do you reason with a bearded afgahni guy?". The answer is "Do it the American way! Shoot him in the head and accidentally kill his daughter at the same time!".

Enough said.

I was about to give up on this thread when I had an Idea. PA, I can't quite follow your reasons as to why American Pre-emptive attacks on countries like Iraq are good. You're obviously capable of setting up an argument more effectively, so I was wondering if you, or someone who shares your views on war and terrorism, could state the basic assumptions or inherent truths that lead you to believe the way you do. I know this is a broad request, but please, think about it, define some terms, and maybe the forum can discuss where the ideas diverge.

To that I just :rolleyes: ... :)

Yes... I want to know where PA's thoughts and ideas have come from too... I'd like to know if his ideas are a widespread belief (as far as he's aware from his own experience of his fellow countrymen) or whether his views are a singular, personal notion.

@Statikk
It would really help if you had some type of references for some of these claims. I can't really believe all of these, as i'm sure some of these would have made huge news. Regardless, i'll respond...

That is not a "flip-flop". He never changed his opinion on the matter. You obviously have failed to realize that congress as a whole is who is spending the money, and what a President wants is not always what he gets.

When did he say such a thing? If it was pre-9/11, it's kind of irrelevant, don't you think? Sure, he isn't in favor of regime change, but sometimes it must be done. Even that dolt John Kerry recognizes this (or at least he DID...).

I am sick of people constantly bringing this moronic argument up..

Would you like to know WHY he said those three things? Because, sir, all three of those were listed in the multiple UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq. Bush cited those resolutions, notably 1441, as his reasons for operation Iraqi Freedom. It is apparent that you have yet to read any of those - why attempt at a forein policy debate, then?

You do realize that this 1% you speak of is actually paying 75% of the nations taxes, right? Naturally, if tax cuts are based on PERCENTS, and man A makes more than man B, who is going to get more of a tax cut?

Let's say i make $100, and you make $10 - i am taxed 30% and you are taxed 20%. Who is keeping more money? Yes, the "rich", but who is PAYING more money? Bingo - the rich. What's so hard to understand about this? Democratic politicians are constantly pushing the cliché that "Bush is for the rich", which is nothing more than propaganda for dinner-time discussion.

THE "RICH" MAKE MORE - SO PROPORTIONALLY THEY WILL KEEP MORE.

Esus! You're heading into true socialist and dare I say.... communist views here!

I see nothing wrong in that though... our (British) system of government at the moment is an, all be it, flawed socialist system and communism is the perfect solution to a lot of ills ... in theory and on paper!... in reality... its track record speaks for itself!!

I get my point of view from what I hear on an every day basis from the News media mainly radio to the general public. Everyday these issues rise to discussion with people and what I am hearing is that more people are actually for this war as oppose to being against it. I know this because I hear it on the radio every single day. You ever hear Glen Beck a talk radio host out of Philadelphia? He is actually libral he is for the war and for the true America. He has a book out called "The True America" And it explanes the justification of America and shows whats really false about the United States. When the extreme left starts complaining about no jobs and the war I see no truth to that because its just not true because I see new jobs forming every day. And when middle people like me want to explane to the extreme left this, we can't because we can't reason with them. They lack rationality and it mainly comes down to being extremely ignorant. I am observing how the extreme left isn't being rational thus I tell them that.

Mainly I am trying to be the middle man and steping back and stateing what I am hearing around me. I make these topics to express that view and try to convince that the extreme left and this whole thing on this war is just a bunch of bull. Because thats not the true America and if you read this book you would agree with me. I am mildly libral myself but I am a real rational person whome agrees with our efforts in Iraq.

As a citizen of the United States I support my country and my troops because what we are doing over there is right.

So what is the name of the book?

"The True America" by Glen Beck... ?

Yes but if your in Europe I dunno if they sell it there.

If you read this book you will see that America is not the fat pigs that Europe and the mainstream media made us out to be. There great people among us who do little things that help and well thats the True America. Just read the book and your opinion towards our country will indeed change.

So maybe I should forget what I read in "Stupid White Men" first then!?! :)

Maybe that would help in the opinion changing?

Oye veh(sp?), I just am joining in on this conversation and I have no clue where to begin. When it comes to Bush, well at first I thought he was the right choice. Seemed to know what he was doing during 9/11 and acted as though he had a decent plan twoards our future, but then war comes along and everything slowly unravels. Now Im not saying that Bush is bad but for God's sake everyday we loose more and more men to some stupid road side bombing in Iraq while the Iraqies have been protesting for us to leave. To me that sounds like a great idea, they don't want our help; enjoy your freedom then. Just don't whine to us when something happens again.

Now to Kerry, well I don't really like him either. In my oppinion non of them should really be running. We need somebody that can nullify the terrorist threat without causing a massive war. And when it comes to the WMD's, well I think if we have indeed found some then Bush better put out before Kerry takes his place. Excuse my mispelling and all of my awefully backed up points but Im kinda tired right now and not in the "zone" for a decent argument, just wanted to put in my two cents..enjoy!

Thats true I think we should pull out and I think in June when we hand over power to the Iraqis I think things will slow down. But it was right to go in and get rid of Saddam before he could become an iminant threat. If anybody who is violent it is the Saddam loyalist. Those are the enamy and those the people responsible for the roadside bombings. We are there bring order and they want to be violent.

Thats the reason why I think the war was justified.

Actually, the stereotypes are pretty much right on the dot.

Of course, there are many of us who are not fat ignorant pigs, but the majority of Americans are.

'I get my point of view from what I hear on an every day basis from the News media mainly radio to the general public. Everyday these issues rise to discussion with people and what I am hearing'

So, effectivly, you believe the Media. Yet, you obviously select very carefully what you believe in the Media because when they say something of dire importance and intellect, you choose not to believe it...which is interesting, since it makes you even more of a moron.

IMHO War is NEVER justifiable... never!

Some wars may be commonly seen as more righteous than others but violence is never justifiable... nor is it acceptable.

PA, are you sure that book was created merely for propaganda purposes? You speak of it as if it is your bible, and:
"So, effectivly, you believe the Media. Yet, you obviously select very carefully what you believe in the Media because when they say something of dire importance and intellect, you choose not to believe it...which is interesting, since it makes you even more of a moron."

What the hell? You didn't give a single reason there! You said they're the bad guys and america was right to kill them. That's your reason?!?

Guys, let's just let PA be. He has his opinions, and as retarded as they may be, he's not going to change them.

'he's not going to change them.'

Well, with an attitude like that it's no wonder there are people dying of AIDS...

Unfortunately I'm with Mac on this one. Until someone sets up the known facts of the war and the situations that brought them on, this argument is likely to devolve into flaming. Perhaps a level-headed conservative (or liberal) could start a thread which clearly stated how we got to this crossroads. I'd really like to understand where PA's coming from and see both sides of this issue; but either I'm too close-minded or I'm simply missing some basic assumptions.

Aids is a completely different (equally controversial) ethical mess. I'm not sure we should get into that here. Good connection though, Jacob. When should we leave well enough alone?

Umm...i was just blaming Macs attitude for AIDS. Yes. His fault.

Vols - you never will understand PA's arguments...ever. Because PA never has a decent argument, mainly because he doesn't take the time to explain his argument logically. He either ends his arguments with "I'm right, God's on my side. You're all going to burn in the damnation of Lucifers urine." or "I'm right. Bush's on my side. You're all going to burn in the damnation of Bushs incompetance.".

Well with a little bit of being reminded on how corrupt everything is nowadays you were right.

Something in me today changed my whole view on the issue and it changed for the good.

I am no longer going to support this war for now I see all the corruption you guys have constantly stated and I have ignored. I was wrong and you were right I was a complete idiot to even think that all of this was justified and nothing was wrong. I dunno what I was thinking.

But I also don't support any Government or regime of that nature as well anymore. It became apparent that we all need to stop our violence towards each other and heal our ancient wounds.

And I want to be the first to admit to my mistake and to improve. So I am sorry for these arguements because now I see just how moronic they really are. And they were moronic and I regret even concieving those ideas. Its embarressing to me and I now realise that. So it won't be like this again now that I see what you see.

So I am just going to go and do my own thing that I do best in FC and let this thread die. With me I am through with my old views on the issues we face. So you guys were right. I dunno with me I guess stuff like this is not my real strong point and I really need to stay away from because its just turns into a big mess.

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

Hmmm - i wonder if that was sarcasm(!)

Jacob its not sarcasm I am really serious here. I was watching a show earlier today and my mind set just changed. I was inspired you can say. The show was about some sort of inner peace type of thing and well it just got me thinking. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to but I know how I feel now towards my old views on things and I am questioning myself about it. So its for real mann. I had an epiphany u can say.

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

Eh, don't feel bad about it, PA. You don't have to change your opinion just because we don't like it.



Unfortunately? Why is it unfortunate? :p

So, PA, you've finally realised that its stupid to blinding believe any piece of propaganda thrown at you? Good.

Don't let a little debate sway you fom your own personal ideas PA! You've been so passionate about them and thats very worthy!

If indeed this programme has modified you take on life... then great! If you're claiming to have changed or you're forcing yourself to change because your views aren't accepted by others 100%... then thats not so great!

I will think no less of you for sticking to your guns in the face of adversity (I mentioned guns... watch Ferill pop up here!) infact perhaps I'd think more of you! But if you have seen the light, had an epiphany (in the Mahatma stylee!)then thats okay too.

Just a few thoughts PA...

CB xx

Its not that I want to turn away from my previous opinion on matters because nobody will accept them. Its the fact for me that it became apparent as an eye opener. I mean look whats happening now in Iraq with this new upriseing and more US troops are dieing.

Mainly I realised that this is a Government war and the true enamy of our world is our Governments. Not only US but all over because they always are wanting more and they get more by force which is as primative as mankind itself. It results in a direct hatred among each other. And the victom is the citizen.

I thought we were better than that. And the ways of the primative violent life are no more. But as I observe how ever it isn't and that same violence still persist today through our governments. Its like "Put down your stones people and start talking and share your ideas with each other."

If they want to wage violence and cause an upriseing in the people then that is a very bad thing. And it is causeing an upriseing and that is the terrorist for their hatred towards us and the coalition to bring back the violence that the terrorist dalivered. That is wrong and Ive had it.

If I had a choice in this life I would literally pack my stuff ask if anybody wants to join me and go down south build myself a boat and set sail and live on an deserted tropical Island where no Government exist and live the rest of my days in sheer freedom. Freedom from the world. Heck I would live on my boat and live at sea. Where I would do art, and have the most fullfilling expierence I can think of for life. No more worries of the Government sheer freedom is what I am talking about. No need to worry about money nothing of the world would be of my concern. But that is extreme of course.

Thats commendable PA!

But..er... this boat.... when you say you're not gonna be alone...

You are thinking of taking a special someone with you I mean... islands can be boring if there ain't no "horizontal Lambarda" ;)

No they cant! why doesnt he just visit a local castle or Fort! wouldnt that just be fun!

sorry....the Alan Partridge in me was talking....

CB, i agree. (heehee, it ryhmes)

You're a poet and you don't know it!

I can do this all day if I can.
But I'm gonna stop now as this is spam!

You better stop on this spam I am or you will be kicked in the can mann! hehe:lol:

I would just ask who feels the same as I on the Government. The one thing I enjoy is being away with people and establishing relationships with those people. But of course it would have to start with a woman where I would start a relationship with her and then trickle through each person sort of like a mini family away from home where its memerable for years to come afterwards.

Me! Me! Me! ...Whats your boat like!?! ;)

Me too! Me! Me! Me!... Whats your boat like!?! ;)

Me! me! Me!... hang on you've lost me there... "trickle" through what where? I have an image but I don't think its the right one!?! ;)

Um yeah I ment by trickle as the friendship moveing throughout the group. Whatever you were thinking hehe:lol:!:eek:

But I don't have a boat I would build myself one with luxeries. Like a TV radio, small kitchen so we are not completely away from civilisation. Mainly a boat with a small liveing qaurters.

In that case.

Oh! Riiight! I get ya!!! :lol:

Sounds good! Me! Me! Me!

This is spam isn't it? ... PM me PA!

Easy! Just kick the terrorist in the balls!

Or we can go to a more religious method of haveing combination pig fats and bags to throw at the terrorist. Word is that the Jews are useing pig fat in bags and hanging them on their buses to ward off Palistinean suicide bombers because they believe if the terrorist or suicide bomber gets covered in pig fat when they die, they will go streight to hell instead of into paradise with 50 women.

Riiight! So no mumbo-jumbo superstition there then!?! :p

Heh I was being sarcastic but yeah your right!:D

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

So was I PA!!!! :rolleyes:

Never mind Pet! x

...or, we can just A-bomb all Middle Eastern countries and rebuild civilisation there from scratch...without the beards.