That's really impressive. Are there indications that other parrots are near this one's capacity? One can only wonder what the grandchildren would be like.

I think what PA is saying, is that our different cultures on earth, are represented on oddworld as being different species.

I thought that's what you were trying to say... Meaning we all seem to be arguing the same arguement.

Very true. But American companies DO take away the livelihoods of self-sufficient peoples by buying land (with sources of wealth these people couldn't possibly have had access to) and then offering them 5 cents an hour working on land they once owned. Even if they aren't beaten or killed, they are forced to conform to a system which allows them only bottom-feeding rights, where they once were masters of their own fate. Surely this is considered taking away freedom?

And consider what happens if they don't do their job and are fired? Driven out of the only place they've known, and into the cities to find lower-paying jobs in even worse conditions. It's true that Oddworld emphasizes wrongs being done in the world beyond the true act. But these events are so under-estimated and trivialized that you rarely consider the actual harm being done. Even less does one consider (As a U.S. citizen) that it is american companies that do it.

Still, this is the way of capitalism. Especially capitalism post-globalisation.

Sorry if it's a little late to respond to this, but I kind of got caught up, as max says "arguing the same point."

Sorry Volsung but that doesn't make any sense. Companies don't just "aquire" land then "force" the original owners to work on it. If anything, the original owners would be so wealthy from having sold their land, that they wouldn't have to work on it any more.

Apparently, according to some of my resources, the war on Iraq was legal, because Saddam had breached some resolutions set by the UN...

And whilst we mingle on prairie land, i think animals rock...

Legal, maybe, but its conforming to the defining factors of being a just war are incredibly dubious, from many reasons. Firstly, the UN did not consent to the occupation, and the war was most definitely not a last resort. Considering no trace of WMDs have ever been found, it's conceivable the US Government, at some point in its hierarchy, falsified facts and just plain lied. Innocent civilians were indeed killed, by the hundreds, if not thousands. There are the typical Internet rumours of exotic alien weaponry being tested, buses condensing to the siz of a small car, with human bodies burning and shriveling to nothing, but that's an even less likely source of truth than Bush. There are huge question marks over the intent of the war and the reason behind it, too. The WMDs, as I said, were not found, and there's plenty to suggest America wanted access to Iraq's oil reserves, though I haven't heard anything about this in ages. Peace was defnitely not resumed after the conflict, either. Whoops, there goes every single definition of a just war. Gulf War II isn't even a sixth justified.

This is getting offtopic now guys.

That's because instead of evolving muscles for strength we evolved brains to be able to use complex tools. You don't need to be able to rip apart wooly mammoths with your bare hands if you've invented the knife.

But getting back on topic to the whole terrorism debate:

I've always believed that "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" were flip sides of the same coin. It just depends on your perspective.

Try and find any freedom fighter in the whole of human history. It could be the Zapadistas (or whatever they're called), Judah Maccabee, Sheik Yassin, or even Jesus if you want. By the very fact that they are Freedom Fighters it means that they are fighting against someone. Now to that perspective they are terrorists.

YOU can say that Bin Laden is so bad that he can't be compared to anyone else but I'm sure that the Mexican government would have no problem saying that the Zapa's are worse than he is simply because they target them and Bin Laden has'nt given Mexico any trouble at all. And similarly Australia hates Jemaa Islamia, England hates the IRA and Spain hates ETA. But then to the Indonesian Mulsims, the nationalist Irish and ETA's supporters they are all freedom fighters and martyrs.

I must say Nate, some very good points there.

And in those situations I'm sure the original owners work out fine. The situations I'm talking about though are the ones in which a government de facto owns private land. This is generally the case in third world countries (and the U.S. too, when push comes to shove) and the companies buy land from the government, not the people we might say own it. If compensation comes, the more the better, but laws protecting human rights from the government aren't always in existence or even enforced. This is to say that the people are generally sent off with minimal compensation.

Another troubling instance is somewhere in India I believe, where Coca-cola for some reason owns all the wells. There's nothing particularly wrong with owning public wells, as long as they remain public, but its difficult to see how foreign powers controlling the water in any given area could be beneficial. Still, they might have those people's best interests at heart.

Sorry to run that argument ragged death, but if you'd like to discuss it further, I think it might better be suited in off-topic.

Good points on Freedom-fighting vs. Terrorism, Nate. Reminds me of trying to understand Pro-Life Abortion-clinic bombers.

That is exactly what I am saying Death you got it right on the dot. Yay here some brew for you:lol:

Anyway the different cultures of the Human race represented in the many races of Oddworld is the very thing that makes Oddworld odd and disturbing.

Its as if its normal for the inhabitants to live like that and if something happened that would change that norm it could mean Oddworld would be doomed.

We are always hearing the term "for all the inhabitants live on Oddworld together and as the quintology unfolds characters that were over looked may proove to be real important in the big picture. For Oddworld is big that we have only begun to explore the true depths of the odd."

Now here is something that would make this very disturbing and very strange and very Oddworldish. What if all the things we are seeing is actually going to turn out to be a real bad thing for Oddworld? Like the heros of the quintology do all their saveing and stuff but in the end and in the big picture they would be the direct cause of this doomed world of dybolical danger's true demise.

For instance when we first saw Oddworld it was a pretty horrifying place. What if that was normal for Oddworld and everything was the way it was suppose to be? The enslavement of the Mudokons, the near extinction of the Gabbits. The torture and the horrific reality of Oddworld all together was not suppose to be changed for the good of Oddworld? And now that seems to be changeing for every game we see. What if that change is actually a bad thing to throw the inhabitants to its demise. Because they are so used to liveing in such conditions that all of a sudden these individuals change that way of life which can cause a sort of extinction throughout all races when actually keeping everything the way it was before wouldn't cause any harm even though it looked to be pretty nasty in the beginning?

That is desturbing. If you don't understand what I am saying, I am simply saying that what if everything we are seeing in the games that are good are actually bad for all of Oddworld? And everything we thought was bad is actually causeing no harm to life on Oddworld but more or less regulateing life on Oddworld?

That is very disturbing if you think about it because it would mean that the way of life on Oddworld in all species is actually a normal thing for them and when all of sudden that is changed it could mean disaster. The sick twisted way of life of industrials is actually normal? Won't that be a surprise!:D

Well, there was a time before the sick industries, remember? In Oddworld, creatures progress through evolution, and at one time they were not the same as they were today. Who's to say which point in time is the norm for Oddworld?
I find it very unlikely that the revolution will cause the destruction of Oddworld. perhaps it will cause the destruction of the Industrialists economy and life-style, but if cause the decadence of everything, then what would be the point the point that Lorne is trying to get across in his stories? Revolt against slavery and veryone will die? I don't think so...

Maybe we should have a monthly thread on a certain issue that Oddworld has in its games?

Hey Volsung nice to see another 19 year old on the forums, you raised some good points. You said that the difference between Abe and Osama is that Bin Laden set himself up to bomb while with Abe it was just dumb luck. Even so Abe still went ahead and killed! If you find a gun that does not mean that you have to use it!

I watched a show about a water company, buying up all the wells in mexico initially claiming it would help the local people.The compnay then charged prices that local poeple can't afford and they are dying from drinking dirty infected water, and we call ourselves a intelligent and civilised species . Big multinational companies(generally) don't give a damn.

But then maybe it is all down to us the consumers!! If we didn't buy these products then the companies wouldn't make profits. So maybe each one of us is responsible.

Ps the biggest threat to world peace is currently in the White House

'and we call ourselves a intelligent'

Colour me wrong, but i'm sure buying up all the water in the area and then selling it to the locals is intelligent.

Each oddworld species seems straightforwardly hellbent on whatever it does. They are undiverse within themselves. And that's what makes the game so strong. Each species is so obviously interested in only one thing.

Glukkons want industry, Mudokons want peace, Gabbits want uh... more young, and Vykkers want science... and such.

So umm yea. I kinda don't know what my point is. :rolleyes:

You're absolutely right. Personally, I think any killing done should be completely personally, one on one. Although I also think that no one should feel they have the right to go through with it, so that's sort of a catch-22. But if you recall, OI was originally going to have a mode in MO where you got a special something if you went through the entire game and didn't kill ANYTHING. The killing in AO and AE they probably would like to be able to avoid, but didn't figure out a way in time, especially since they didn't manage to implement it in MO.

So yes killing is wrong, but I think that OI knows this and would like to offer alternatives. The problem we might have with Abe in his two games is essentially a question of gameplay.

Economically intelligent but morally reprehensible.

Amen. Unfortunately the two party system doesn't leave nearly enough room for alternative candidates.

And on a final note, much as I love the idea of consumer politics, there's only so much one can do to avoid giving money to these conglomerates. For instance: I hate Microsoft and Sony, but in order to play the games I liked (namely Oddworld) I had to sell out and buy an xbox. And beyond that, even if one can manage to avoid buying stuff from blatently evil companies, there's always the good company that's owned by another evil one. Case in point: Converse. Who owns them now? Nike or Reebok. I forget which.

Hmm, may I remind everyone that this is an oddworld discussion. As good as your points are, they should be made in another thread.

Good Call, Death. Sorry.

PA's point about upsetting the natural balance, then. Wow. I'd never even once hoped to concieve such a completely twisted, excellent thought. How COULD the industrial side of Oddworld be considered in harmony with the life on oddworld? I imagine, Since they tend to destroy all the resources in any given area, that to make it work there would have to be an enormous fallow period, during which the industrials would have to move elsewhere. This is, I suppose, possible, Since Oddworlds so huge, but then the problem becomes population control.

On the other hand, that might not be too big a deal with species dependent upon their queens for reproduction. Wow. It's kind of difficult to think about the scale their operations would have to be on. There would almost have to be a lateral swath of industry down the planet which moved slowly around it. That way there might be a long enough period for resources to reform and animals to repopulate. But I guess that's supposing that the glukkons don't truly eradicate the species before they leave. Hmm.

Good Question PA. That would be a pretty intense twist, and as Death pointed out earlier, what with the species being so single-minded, there would have to be a huge sense of community. A community in which the mudokons forgot their place as slave labor.

On a similair point, would Mudokons have been bred to be dumber? They only do menial tasks, and they're right on the verge of becoming meat, anyway. Cows have gotten dumber, it just seems possible. Even likely.

Thing is Volsung, the way Glukkons operate their businesses, is to spread factories EVERYWHERE. They don't farm animals, they just rope them in. So the idea of Glukkons actually allowing the animals to repopulate is far fetched.

Oddworld is so huge that it doesn't suffer from the affects of pollution, and won't do until Glukkons start logging the countless thousands of hectares of rainforest on oddworld. So any pollution you get from oddworld is found only within the vicinity of factories.

Now, shutting down a factory to move operations to places with more resources would mean putting out the boilers, and once you do that you can't relight them, it just becomes uneconomical. So to move operations elsewhere, would require for the boilers to be kept fired - this would continue to pollute the area, thus killing off all harvestable wildlife.

To tackle this problem, Glukkons harvest everything in sight as quickly as possible. Oddworldians seem to loose interest in novelty meat products quite quickly anyway, so having a species become extinct and having to move on to another species in the end just keeps the customers happy. The customers get to see a change of scene in what they eat.

Good thinking, death.
Yeah, it would seem a little far-fetched for the industrials to turn out keeping things in balance and not just destroying everything. Still, it was such an off the wall Idea I figured I'd have to try. I don't know what I thought they were going to do with the factories.

Any ideas on the dumbing down of the mudokon Gene-pool?

Well, I don't think it would make much sense. Mudokons don't have much meat on them, and are not considered a universally farmable animal. If anything Mollocks plan was just to keep his factory alive.

Personally I don't think you could dumb down muds. Cows haven't really been dumbed down, they've always been dumb, and have evolved due to selective breeding, rather than anything natural.

Cows these days are completely color blind, have poor vision (which is why they herd), and are mostly meat. They spend their lives happily grazing on lush pastures, following a routine of very basic thought patterns, mostly to identify grass, other cows, and danger. Muds on the other hand, can't be bred. You can't leave a mud in the room with another mud and hope they will eventually get it on. They'll more likely try and bump off one of the gaurds so they can escape.

Hehe, yea thats a thing bound to happan... although I think the mudukons in the gameplay ARE dumb! (Happely walking into a grinder... anyone?)

Well seeing as how the Vykkers own Sam, Mudokons can technically be bred. They have a practicly endless supply right infront of them. Anyways, I just now am begining to join this conversation so if I seem alittle behind its because Im reading the earlier pages of disscussion..:)

Although this is only somewhat related to Oddworld, there is evidence that Cows have gotten dumber since we picked them as a food source. For instance, if you leave a cow on a verdant hillside alone, it will eat all the grass in the area, then simply stay put and die. Meaning an animal fitted to survive in the wild would go ove the hill and find the rest of the grass. Cows nowadays are too dumb to go searching for food when they're hungry.

As for mudokons ability to be bred, I had forgotten to take into account the mating system (What with the queen and drones and all) but the Vykker's probably could give Sam less of certain nutrients to create dumber Muds; but that's just silly. The Muds are already slave labor, and I can't see why Vykkers or Gluks would go to the trouble of making dumber slaves. Though back in the day southern plantation owners did try to breed their slaves to be bigger, stronger, and dumber; as death rightly noted, such a system could not be implemented for Mudokons.

Would the other mudokons want to rebel against the Magog Cartel? The only one we have seen do this is Abe. The glukkons probably think that the threat of death would keep them in line and wouldn't want to waste moolah.

Actually Volsung, you are wrong. If a cow consumes all the grass in the immediate area surrounding it, it will move on. I know several farmers who have many hundreds of milk and meat cows. They don't need prompting around the field to avoid starving, they just wonder about themselves.

Occasionally they will be moved to another field, but that is only because the farmer needs to do work on the field they were in. Cows are not really that "dumb", or at least, they aren't as dumb as people make them out to be. If a cow sees a human approach a gate, then the cow will slowly and carefully approach, purely out of curiousity. If the animal was dumb, then it wouldn't react to the humans presence at all.

Don't forget the Shrinks that keep telling the Mudokons that escape is impossible since they are born...

Not to mention the fact that the Mudokons aren't technically under threat of death. As Abe says in AO he considers it a job (Or did) and it seems that the casualties are generally passed off as bad work conditions. On the scrolling text and certain signs, that is. Most Mudokons probably aren't aware that they could live without being forced to work. So it does seem unlikely that they would in general be pretty tame.

As for them all knowing Abe and going with him in MO, I suppose one could consider their apathy as the source for not attempting to escape on their own. Figures they might just think to wait around until Abe shows up.

Most Mudokons have never, as far as I'm aware, stumbled across a board meeting only to learn they're due to star on the chopping board soon enough, so they've probably just not been encouraged enough. They've obviously learnt about Abe from poster and the media - maybe this is only something local, though, and Mudokons further afield won't recognise Abe.

I was actually surprised the scrubs liked him in MO, though, as we know that the glukkons only put out negative media concerning him. I guess Mudokon scrubs are either smart enough to look past him blowing up various factories in which they worked, or they do indeed dislike their jobs to the point of considering sabatoge.
Thus taking us back the Terrorist or Freedom Fighter question.

Since Mudokon scrubs only learn of things which the glukkons want them to know of, and since we've been told they don't think they're enslaved (generally) then why do they willingly follow a known "terrorist" who's blown up previous places of employment, and (for all they know) other mudokons?

Possibly ever since F.U.D. T.V. uncovered the bones-Brew connection, Mudokons have had more of a sceptical view of the Glukkons, and that the network was actually shut down perhaps sparked the Mudokons' conspiracy minds a little. I think the fight against oppression might start getting stronger from the inside out - if only the Mudokons could be bothered. These 'city' Mudokons are a lazy bunch, and as you say probably do figure it's best to sit around and wait for Abe to show up.

Well as I see it. There is most likely a large source of hatred twoard Glukkons and Sligs(etc.) building up in most of the Scrub Mudokons. Even if they were, ever seince birth, fed false propeganda about how great and truely lucky they are to be working. I think the only reason we don't see them doing anything about it is because their emaciated, tired, and psycologically shut down. I mean a Slig beating you and your friends everyday dosen't really leave you with any hope. It's just like what the Nazi's did to the Jew's in the consentration camps, they made them shut down psycologically and forced them to submit.