Ok, I know that this topic has been around for a decent time now but I just wana put in my two cents.

I am a Christian and I do belive in evolution. I love god and I always try to follow his word but I don't think that you have to follow the bible exactly. The bible is was mainly made to record the historical teachings of Jesus and give us an example to follow. Now Im not perfect but I do try to follow it as best I can and I belive that if everyone did the world would be a much nicer place. As for evolution, they say that god works in mysterious ways and I belive this is one of them. When god created earth he created the animals before us, then it says he created us last. So why not take an animal that already exists and just evolutionize it really quickly? Just because I belive in evolution and other theorys that are supposedly against the belif of a Christian dosn't mean that Im a hypacrit. If evolution never happened then why do we have a tailbone? I don't wanna spark any flames but thats what I feel.

Wow, nice job imitating yourself Gluk! *laughs harder*

Maybe the expressing of personal beliefs isn't a game, true, but this topic has, pardon the phrase, evolved into something much different. But, you are correct, I should contribute something.

My personal feelings on the subject are kind of mixed. On one hand, I've learned a lot about darwinian evolution, and it seems to make sense and have evidence for it. On the other hand, though, life has taught me that the things that make the most sense often aren't how it works at all. I don't know. Right now, I think evolution is indeed the best supported and most likely candidate we have, and therefore should approach it with a level of suspended disbelief in the hopes of advancing our knowledge about it. If a better argument comes along, I'm willing to listen, but until then I'll keep looking into this one.

The thing is, though, I get really tired of people seeing DISproof of evolution as proof of creation theory. It isn't that black and white, especially considering the evidence being put forth. I pretty much figure that (and please don't take offense at this, it's just my opinion) biblical literalists are living in a fool's paradise. To say that the exact wording of the bible sitting on their bookshelf today, after millenia of translations and political manipulations, is the same as the original is just ignorance, in it's purest sense. You are ignoring the fact that it is not the same as the original text, and saying that it is. You are refusing to accept that things have changed. That's what gets me, people thinking that things don't change over time, that the universe and everything in it is static, which is also their argument against evolution. Whether or not it happens exactly as Darwin said it did is irrelivant- to say things don't change is to stand defiantly against every single lesson life teaches us, with everything we do. It's the complete and total ignorance, because you're ignoring everything you're being taught.
Now, I'm not saying there might not be some truth to the creation theory put forth in the bible. For all I know, there very well could be some omniscient force that created us and everything around us. It seems very convenient and suspect, but I can't disprove it. But to say that this force created everything with a certain process and not another, WHEN EVEN YOUR OWN BOOK, THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE TO REFER TO, DOESN'T EVEN MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THAT PROCESS, just seems silly to me.

So, in short, I am an evolutionist presently, but try to keep an open mind. If someone were to make an argument for biblical creation that they could support with more than one resource, so not just by disproving evolution or quoting the same scripture I'm suspicious of, then I would be happy to listen. If those are your only arguments, though, then I've heard it all before.

You are not a Christian if you do not accept a literal and not allegorical interpretation of the bible. CAN YOU DIG IT, SUCKA!!! If you believe otherwise you are not only a jive turkey you are a showpopotamus and a jive wombat. Everything is statikk...to me(bum bum ba ba ba ba ba ba bum, rest of Bohemian Rhapsody here.)

I don't understand. Surely if people don't agree with these articles, then they are the people you would most need to talk to, right? I mean, what would be the point in trying to persuade someone of something they already believe in...?

Rachel, Ian was only trying to lighten the mood. No need to blow up at him.

If you have a table in your house, the chance is someone made it directly or indirectly for you. It did not made itself, or it was not made by a chance. Same rule applies for your car, your house, your clothes, your medicine, and everything else in your home or at your work.

The common sense says that there is a worker behind every work, there is a maker for everything made. Nothing is made by itself or by a chance. Sometimes things are complicated enough to take many steps and perhaps many people to work in until they reach you. Actually, it depends on two factors. First, how complicated this job is, and second, how much experience and intelligence the maker has. For example, you can find someone who is intelligent enough to finish a job by himself that is usually required many people to finish.

There is nothing in this universe that would not submit to this simple rule, everything is made by someone. For example, you will not believe someone who tells you that the complicated computer you are using now is made by a chance or by the nature! It will never happen. If we bring big pieces of some metals, chemicals, and leave them together, for even billions of year, are there a chance that they will react together in a very specific ways to create very specific memory chips, sounds, pictures that governed by hundreds of scientific complicated equations and laws? What is the chance that they create very specific voltage, watts, bps, dimension, cache, network connection, modem speed, just to mention a few? Moreover, I have not mentioned the details of monitors, disk drives, or other very complicated parts! Also, I have not mentioned thousands of very complicated mathematical equations that work behind the seen. Examining the latest Y2K bug, it costs hundreds of billion of dollars just to fix the date. The fear of the consequences of Y2K was felt in every business. Any single computer has tens of thousands of line coding behind the seen. Sometimes, a single line of errors could disable your computer.


Your computer will not be fixed even if it left alone for million of years. Nature will not fix it, and for sure it will not be fixed by a chance. The only way to correct your computer is to get a computer specialist to fix it. Now, who would believe, even for a second, that this computer could be created by a chance or by the nature? Few centuries ago, some people could believe this proclamation. But, today, after we discovered how compilcated everything in this universe, it is hard to beleive. The U.S spent billions after billions of dollars for over half a century, in research in Space. You ask any scientist, how much we know after all these years. The answer is very little. They will tell you how complicated the universe is, and how it is governed by millions of complicated laws that control everything in the universe. If you ask scientist about the smallest plant or animal, they will tell you how the system in each is fully equipped with wonders to keep each functioning smoothly. Can you tell me in the age of science and technology that all these come to existence by a chance or by nature? It will be a joke. Logically, it is not acceptable. In conclusion, we go back to the same simple rule in life, "for everything made there is a maker" Thanks to science. It helps us to get back to common sense.

Going Pinky, eyeh...? You never said in your post if you were talking about god, or not. Well I assume you were saying that evolution couldn't have happened, because there has to be a maker for everything, so it couldn't have had just happened. So you believe in creation? If so, I can ask you the same question I've asked from Pinky many times: If there is a worker behind every work and a maker for everything made, then who made god?

Exactly, and just think about how many monkeys have been tortured in their astronaut exams...

Nothing got tortured. Thats a common misconception. The Monkey's went up into space and when they came back down they were highly advanced and had the intelligence of Einstein. They are now trying to claim the world, infact, Bush is one of them.

Yeah, right...

lol! :D But hey... intelligence of Einstein...Bush?

Yes, your right. Although, he was IMMENSLY clever...until...*Dark, evil, echoey voice* The Pretzel came...

Hmmm, suddenly had a vision of a Pokémon fight.

Gary: "Gooooo Mini-Bush!! Ha-Ha Ash, with my Mini-Bush i can do some serious (Yet IMMENSLY stupid) damage to any of your Pokémon!!"

*Ash takes out Pokédex.*

Pokédex: "Mini-Bush. The evolved version of 'Two-Short-Planks'. This little, tiny, annoying little shit has immense power yet also immense stupidity. Look out for his úber move 'Nuke-anything-that-begins-with-'AFGHAN'."

*Ash puts Pokédex back*

Ash: "Hmmm, this calls for some serious action. Gooooooooooooooooooo Pretzel King!!"

Pretzel King: "Pret-Pret-Preeeet!!"

Mini-Bush: *To be said in a Psyduck like way* "Mini-Booosh(!)"

Gary: "Oh no!! Mini-Bush...quickly, come back!!"

*Mini-Bush runs around in circles clutching his head stupidly.*

Ash: "QUICK PRETZEL KING...DO 'IDIOTS-CHOKE-ON-THIS'!!"

*Pretzel King breaks up into tiny crumbs and then fly's quickly towards Mini-Bush, entering his mouth and clogging up his throat...killing him...forever.*

Ash: "Yey, well done Pretzel King!! Pretzel King?"

(Unfortunatly Pretzel King also gets digested. Bless.)

*Shakes head from side to side*

Whoa, weird vision.

That was really funny, Chris. :D Too bad that wasn't how it went...

So before he ate the pretzel of doom he was as smart as a chimp? Yeah right...

No, really he was. But unfortunatly his mouth was connected to his arse for some unknown reason.

If Bush really was a monkey, though, then that would mean he would have thumbs. However, if you look closely, you will notice that our president has a hansome pair of lobster claws in the place of normal human hands. Take a look at the next state of the union address- if a member of the senate happens to enrage him, he will waste no time in mauling the pitiful whelp with his razor-sharp poison tipped pinchers. It's kind of cool.
And leave the pretzel alone! That damned pretzel did nothing wrong, it was all in self defense! See what you do if you're suddenly dried, roasted, coated in mustard powder and jammed uncerimoniously down a US president's gullet! You would struggle, that's what you'd do, little pretzel doubting elves! Struggle! STRUGGLE! ELVES!

This is an incredibly silly argument. Not everything has a maker. Go outside and touch a tree. Does that have a maker? No. Pick up a stone. Does that have a maker? No. Neither does the Universe.

Of course, you could say that these things do have a maker, that God was their maker, but in doing so you are admitting that your entire argument for proving God's existence depends on the assumption that he exists anyway.

Your argument: Everything has a maker. Tables are made by Carpenters, Computers are made by computer-makery people, plants and animals are made by God. By this logic, the Universe must have a maker as well. Let us call this maker God.

My return: Not everything has a maker. Tables and computers do, but plants and animals don't. Therefore the Universe does not have to either.

See? Your argument is dependent on the assumption that you are correct. If we remove that assumption and examine your argument analytically, it falls apart...

Sorry I've been gone. This topic has grown a lot since I've been gone. I will try to get caught up and reply to some of the comments about my posts.

I do not have an intense fear of homosexuals GlukSchmuck. I just think that homosexuality is not a good lifestyle. My opinion, I'm not trying to change anyones.

That's still homophobia. Would you care to describe why you don't think it's a good lifestyle?

My reasons are my own and sort of personal. Enough said. Period. I don't want to accidently say something really bad. The last thing I need is someone getting mad at me since most people think it is an okay lifstyle.

Why are you picking on me Gluk Schmuck? I'm not forcing you to think the same way I do.

I'm not. I'm just curious.

That's okay. I just am used to getting a hard time for some of my beliefs. I know what I believe and why but when people question me it is hard to give an answer since I have to worry about whether or not it will piss someone off. I don't like getting people mad at me. In today's society it is hard to keep to my morals and when people mock them it dosn't make it any easier. I hope you understand.

WIth most beliefs, I am not too bothered. For example, the fact that you don't believe in Evolution doesn't bother me, because it does nobody any harm. However, homophobia and other prejudices do concern me, because they can cause harm to others. I'm not saying that you might go out and beat a gay to death because you think that homosexuality is not a good lifestyle, but just by believeing such a thing, you are helping to maintain a society where such things can happen, if you see what I mean. I only say this so that you understand why I will be on your case about this.

I really would like to know why you believe what you do. If you are afraid of offending somebody or attracting flames, then you could PM me (I won't be offended or angry), if you don't mind. I find it fascinating learning why people believe what they do, especially beliefs like homophobia and racism and things.

(BTW I mean "homophobia" in the colloquial sense meaning "dislike of homosexuality", not the technical sense, "fear of homosexuality", before you point that out.

Actually, come to think of it, literally, homophobia means "fear of similarity", so I needn't have said anything. Bummer.)

It is really hard to explain why I believe in my religion so much. My devotion to it must seem weird to the people here who aren't seriously religious. I guess for you to understand the reasons why I do things you would have to experience a similar faith.

When it boils right down to it, the only reason I believe anything is because of my religion. Without Christianity I would be able to do anything I wanted, even if it would harm myself and others. I would have nothing to look forward to when I die. So I've found a religion which makes sense. I agree with most of the morals and the ones I don't agree with I follow anyways because of my faith that it is for the better.

Nothing I can say will make it easier for you to understand my beliefs, especially the ones that seem bad to you. Just like I can't understand why anybody would believe certain things. It is just the way are consciences have been developed to think.

Hopefully that makes a little bit of sense.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Surfacing
[B]If you have a table in your house, the chance is someone made it directly or indirectly for you. It did not made itself, or it was not made by a chance. Same rule applies for your car, your house, your clothes, your medicine, and everything else in your home or at your work. The common sense says that there is a worker behind every work, there is a maker for everything made. Nothing is made by itself or by a chance.[B]

Ah, but you're forgetting- we don't really create those things. When you "make" a table, you are not starting with nothing and ending with something, you are simply manipulating something into something else. When you think about it, we don't really create anything, just change it. You can't truely create anything and you can't truely destroy anything, just combine, dispurse, organize, randomize, transform or otherwise manipulate it. A person cannot really create anything, because you have to have the components to start with. We see the act of manipulating them as "creating" because we have a bad habit of not seeing it as a conglomeration of it's parts, but as a whole seperate thing. The idea that a man "makes" a table is a fallacy of logic caused by our limited perspective of existance.

And, even if everything in the universed DOES have to have a creator, it's a completely different argument. You're arguing that God exists and that he created everything- fine, let's assume he does, and that he did. The conflict at hand is HOW life was created, through evolution, the creation theory expressed in orthodox Christian scripture, or something else alltogether. WHO did it is completely irrelivant, the question is HOW, and since scripture is insanely vague on this subject (in fact, COMPLETELY vague. It gives us NO INFORMATION ON THIS SUBJECT WHATSOEVER, other than how long it took, and that's iffy!!!), that leaves evolution and something else, and evolution is our best estimate right now based on the evidence we have . Whether or not god exists is a completely seperate argument, because he could very well exist and have used Darwinian evolution as his tool to create life. This is why I believe in evolution- because the alternatives have little or no support , and can actually go with evolution if you think about it! Please, think about it!!!!

Oh, come on now. Morality and Christianity are not symonymous. I have morals, and I'm an atheist. All religions and most non-religious people have morals, not just Christians.

Again, see above. It's not just Christians who believe in life after death. I myself do not actually believe anything one way or another, as there is not way to prove or disprove the existence of life after death...

This is the bit I can't understand. Why do you follow morals that you don't believe? That is effectively doing something that you know to be morally wrong...

But anyway, I didn't actually ask about your beliefs, I asked why you think that "Homosexuality isn't a good lifestyle".

I knew that what I wrote was confusing. Thanks for pointing out exactly what. The last part about following morals that I know are wrong... well the truth is I don't know why I wrote that. I don't disagree with any of the morals taught in the Bible. I need some sleep.

Neither did God, he created us out of dust!This reminds me of a scripture class I had in High School, where the bloke got up and explained how without God, the actions in the lives of Mother Theresa and Hitler are no different. When we broke up into seperate groups, we were lucky enough to have this man as our leader. I asked him why being rewarded with an afterlife should be the motivation of good deeds. I said it seemed selfish to me: Why can't we be good for goodness sake, rather than for promise of reward?

I think you need to ask yourself why you're a Christian. Is it because you love Christ? Or are you motivated by personal gain, as you said yourself: "I would have nothing to look forward to when I die."

Well Dan let me ask you this:
Some say it is impossible to prove God's existence. But if that is true, how do they know this? Are there any proofs that prove it is impossible to prove God's existence.

Sydney you have a good point. But think. Why would I be a Christian for selfish reasons, all the non-religious people I know act like they have a great time doing things I think are wrong. If I was in it for myself I wouldn't be religious. It would be all about me.

But that dosn't mean that the my drive for being a Christain isn't because I look forward to Heaven. It is the main part. The other is that I want to live a good life and this seems like the best way I can do it and be satisfied with myself. Most people I know like me, or at least none of them hate me (i think). I attribute this to the way I was brought up. I'm a "pew baby," which means I've gone to Church since birth.

Long-term, you know that the non-religious people you know will be burning in hell forever, while you're basking in the warm glow of eternal life. With this knowledge, your acting in the belief that you will be the one living the good life, while others will not be. So you're denying yourself of things you think are fun-but-wrong only during this life, in hopes of an afterlife. It's like some people live for the moment, spending their weekly earnings on simple pleasures, while other people deny themselves simple pleasures because they believe saving their money will bring themselves more pleasure long-term.If Christianity is the only thing that makes your deeds good, in turn making you a likable person who is compassionate to others, then good for you. But don't make the mistake of thinking that non-religious people are bankrupt of morals. I know many non-religious people who possess the kindest hearts I've known. To me, their hearts are pure, and don't need a promise of afterlife to maintain genuinity.

By the way, I've reset the password of your old account. The new password has been sent to your email address.

Well Leon, let me tell you this:
Nobody likes a smartarse. When somebody proves it one way or another, give me a call. Until then, the burden of proof is on the Believer.

Khanzumer (what's your name, by the way?), if you believe that Christianity helps you to lead a good life, then carry on. But don't be fooled into thinking it is the only way...

Basically it boils down to what a person believes. Some people believe in stupid stuff such as "Oddworld being real" or "Abe possessing them during their lifetime" so on and so forth. Its upto them. They dont have evidence or anything substantial to prove this, they merely believe it. I believe in life after death mainly due to the scientific research that has gone into it. Such as recording "Ghosts". Its very interesting and has been done. They take a recorder and ask a "Haunted" house questions, pausing a brief time inbetween. Then they analyse the tape and they can hear voices. Also, if they record the surrounding on a video camera then they can see small glowing orbs floating around. Also, its a very nice thought. Being a ghost and protecting people...

There is one thing that Christians and Catholics seem to mis-understand. And that is Jesus or God never wrote the bible. A number of his diciples did. John (I think) was the one who wrote about homosexuality. If y'all kind did your research and did not think that questioning a belief was sinful then you would realise that Jesus actually said "Man should do what man desires." see, Jesus was a parté animal.

Does anyone remember that mock-documentary they did on BBC a few years back (in the early 90s, I think), where they pretended to be investigating a haunted house? They made it like a real documentary, and broadcast it as that, but it was full of little nice touches, like a figure standing by a curtain that wasn't there when the camera swung back. It sounds cheesy, but it was really well done, and was actually very believable.

Or at least, it was until the end, where Parkinson got possessed and starting saying nursery rhymes in a deep voice... :D

It wasn't a mock thing...i dont think. Its a known thing now, recording stuff like that.

I wasn't talking about these experiments in general, I was talking about one particular programme, which was a mock documentary, and was very good. It was even quite scary in places...

Thanks Sydney. I'll check for the new password.

As for the other stuff you said... Don't get me wrong, I think that everyone has some sort of morals. I don't think that only Christians do good things. I just attribute MY morals to my parents bringing me up in the Church.

I cant stand people with too many morals. They are so boring. Its like "Yeh, we dont want to talk about football anymore!!"

Ok then. How do you know that they do exist? Have you met one? Can you "Sense" them with your Dracconic abilities? What!?