HELL vs. HEAVEN
 

I never said anything about hell, I said to kill a baby at birth.......nothing about hell......


Mudokon101...

All are born blind, dead and enemies of god. Who knows where the unborn babies go? Original sin, old adam, the darkside, whatever you may call it, no one is innocent.

*doesn't quite understand what M101 or Stattik are going on about*

In my opinion, if a woman has had sex and not bothered with any form of contraception she should not be allowed an abortion - after all, she knew what she was getting into, and excuses like "my boyfriend left me, I can't bring the child up alone" are pathetic and cynical. However, I do not believe that abortion should be made illegal - if a woman is that desperate to get rid of her unborn child she will do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. It's been shown over and over that women who can't get a "proper" (and by that I mean in a hospital) abortion will simply go out and get one done by some other means - perhaps pay for someone to do it, or do it herself, with a knitting needle or a coathanger or something similar, risking her own life. Surely saving one life is better than wasting two, and like many here have said, God will judge them for it.

What I'd like to know is what all the very religious people here feel about the young girl who desires an abortion because she is only 12, and was raped by her father. Not only is she probably barely fertile, is incest not a sin? And who is punished, the father for raping the child (or perhaps persuading her that sex is a good idea) or the child for desiring the abortion? Surely you aren't going to force her to carry the child (not only dangerous because of her age, but also mentally traumatic because of who was the father) and then simply take it away from her?

If you argue that abortion isn't destroying a life, but preventing a life from starting, does that mean that you support abortion right up until one second before birth? It seems like you're drawing a line where nothing suggests there should be one. Sure, we have "birthdays" that mark the day we were spat from our mother's womb, but they're more of a cultural/legal thing.

A baby can live outside its mothers womb quite some time prior to nine months. Does this make it okay to kill a prematurely born baby on the basis that it is still a "foetus"?

Yeah,

Some babies are born taken out of the body before it's there time because of that "Toxic" disease, and they don't look quite done. Does that mean that mother has a right to take that baby away from this earth because of that disease which does'nt last long?

No, I did not. I already told you about that like a thousand times.

Regarding the subject, I'm personally against abortion, if the baby was mine. I can't extrapolate that to decide what other people should do with their own babies, it's a very dificult thing to do.

Looking into the logic of this assertion, and considering only that, doesn't it imply that killing a foetus (who apparently hasn't had time to commit any sins) is actually a good action, since it means that it goes straight to heaven?

And People, please don't ask Pinky about killing homosexuals. The text she posted was not writen by her, therefore, it doesn't reflect exactly her own opinions. Be kind to her.

I think in some situations it is ok to have an abortion, see if you think of it how about if the mother use's drugs,or she is not mentally stable to take care of the infant. Also there is war amoung this world would you really want to bring in a child to see the horror's of the every day world.?

if the mother isn't stable, why doesn't the child go up for adoption instead of destroying the baby's chance of life.

You people must understand that the spark of life is beuty. I'm sure none of you would feel happy about your mothers agreeing to kill your egg?

If you dont want a baby, then dont ****! stupid idiots get pregnent all the time because they are lazy and stupid. The baby does not have to pay for it... And it shouldn't

1. No, I wouldn't feel happy if I didn't exist, I wouldn't be capable of emotion if I didn't exist!

2. What about people who don't know that sex leads to babies?
What about the people who don't have access to contraceptives?

hmmmm..well, first to deal with (1)....are you implying, that people should only have sex to reproduce?
If so, i feel that you've just made an incredibly odd statement.
Sure, SOME people have sex for the sole purpose of having a child.
But, i suppose one of the 'traps' of sex, is that it feels too damned good. As far as people who have unplanned children being stupid idiots? well, i won't even comment on that.
Sure, pregnancies can be caused by laziness, or by pure accident...so what? sex is truly a beautiful thing, as is life.
2..i somewhat agree with you. I mean, sure, if a woman is unstable, adoption is key. I'm adopted, and it has not really had any ill effects on me. As far as the whole 'babies not having to pay for our mistakes' comment, well unfortunatley, with the majority of unplanned pregnancies, they do. Not because they are aborted or adopted, but because the parents failed to make the right choice, and bring them into an unsafe, ad unloving enviornment. and just as some of you are totally against abortion, others are totally against adoption. i don't really know if my reply made sense to anyone other than myself, but hey, i tried. :)

Okay, I am not going to attempt to argue with anything Pinky has said, because I know better, now... Just one question: I know that what you posted wasn't written by you, but if you disagreed with what it said, why did you post it? And if you do agree with it, then how would pointing out that you didn't write it justify it?

As I have already said, Abortion is not possible that late. Abortion is only possible during the early stages of pregnancy. I'm not sure the exact point where it becomes impossible, but once past that point, if the baby is lost, then it is known as a Stillbirth.

Besides, one has to draw the line somewhere. The baby develops from a single fertilised egg to a baby over a period of nine months. A single fertilised egg is (I am 100% sure of this) not a conscious being. A baby is. There is no definite point that one can point to and say "There! It's a baby now!" We just don't have the technology to find out when it becomes conscious, and so we must put it down to how we define a "child". The way I define it, the foetus is NOT a child, and therefore you are not killing a person, you are stopping a person from coming into existence. If you try and see it from this point of view now, you will see why objecting to Abortion is just silly (from this point of view). In fact, I've already explained it...

I've already said this twice, but since you appear to have ignored it, I will say it again:

You argue that Abortions shouldn't be allowed because they might prevent someone like your cousin from being born. But, by this reasoning, Contraception should also be banned (since it might prevent a great person from being born), and we should advocate having babies as much as possible (since not having babies as much as possible might prevent a great person from being born). Can't you see how ridiculous this is? Where do we draw the line?

Okay, just one, then...

I did not say this. Do not accuse me of being a liar when you so blatantly lie yourself. I said that Abortions do not cause Cancer, I never said that they were not painful and traumatic.

All technically true. All also totally irrelevant...

Overpopulation. Don't mean to sound heartless, but there it is...

Phew! Quote-heavy today... That'll teach me to not come online for a few days...

:mad:

Abortions do cause breast cancer because you are interrupting the birth process, and the cells in your breast start to die and they end up staying there. I don't think you research. It was discovered recently.

*sigh* Pinky, i would LOVE to read this info about abortions causing breast cancer, think you could find a link for me?

We're talking about deliberately induced abortion, right? As far as I was aware, it's called abortion right up until about 7 or 8 months, after that it's called infanticide (inducing delivery to kill it). There's a type of commonly performed abortion that takes place as late as four or five months into pregnancy. The doctor induces delivery before puncturing the skull. A tube is then inserted into the head and the brains are sucked out before the dead baby is fully removed from the womb.Define foetus. Is a foetus simply the state of the offspring in the time up until birth? You've already decided for yourself that a foetus is not a child, and that aborting a foetus is acceptable. Do you consider a baby born four months premature to be worthy of the title "child" or is it still a foetus, even though outside of the womb? Your dependence on strict definitions doesn't seem to work.

foetus or no foetus, it is life.

People who take it like its nothing is just loonie and "OVERPOPULATED" eh Danny?

And sure, I will find the cancer link. Atleast I can show you that a fetus is alive and abortion can cause breast cancer.

Thank you Sydney for that disgusting information. Now you've put an image in my head. I keep my views on abortion yet I dislike reading your posts more than previously...


Since you value life so much do you also want all the other animals in the world to not be killed?

Poor diddums. The reality of it is quite disgusting, isn't it?More than previously? Do you have a problem with me that you'd like to discuss?

intelligent life

If the wanna have sex for pleasure well ofcourse you use contraception. Contraception and abortoins do have a difference, with abortion there is a 100% chance of life but without its 50% or less if your use contraception. Just dont take the risk that might haunt you forever.

dont mean to sound heartless but you shouldn't have been born at all.... hurts doesn't it, i know it hurts and it also makes you think

Dont risk it, get off your ass and buy a damn condom...

funny funny sydman...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3382/ABORT06.JPG
This is what sydman is talking about.

1. Yes

2. Yeah, stop putting pictures in my head!


1. Most animals are intelligent. As far as I can tell, all animals are intelligent.
Define intelligent, please.

2. What about people who don't have access to condoms?

You have to draw the line somewhere.

Who said it wasn't? I certainly never claimed that foetuses were not alive, and I can't think of anyone else who has...

So are you saying that Foetuses are Intellgent? More intelligent than most animals? I don't want to start an argument, because that's the kind of argument that belongs in a different debate. Just giving you something to think about...

I know there's a difference. I was just pointing out that you can't say that every baby that could be born should be born, just in case it's a great person, which was what you seemed to be suggesting.

Look, I'm trying not to get angry, but don't twist my words. I didn't say (or even imply) that anybody should not have been born. I am not saying that every foetus should be aborted. In fact, I'm not saying that any specific foetuses should be aborted. Whether or not to have an abortion should be entirely up to the mother. So, did your mother want to abort you but was prevented from doing so by the State? I doubt it, somehow. If that is exactly how it went, then I apologise, and you can ignore this last paragraph. But if your conception and birth did not go exactly that way, then that was simply cheap points-scoring...

Perhaps, but why is the place where you draw your line any better than where pro-lifers draw theirs? You've presented reasons for your argument: a lack of consciousness in the early stages of pregnancy. I agree that if an abortion must be performed, it should be done early, ie, within the first three weeks. Is it safe for me to assume you believe abortion is okay as long as we define the unborn baby as a foetus? I'm uncomfortable with your reasoning because there is no significant difference between a foetus of five months in the womb and a baby born four months premature, because you draw the line at whether or not the "organism" is in or out of the womb. I also disagree with what you said about abortion only being considered abortion within the first few months. As far as I knew, it's abortion up until birth, it just gets uglier the longer you wait.

The "pro-lifers" draw the line at conception, which is absurd. You imply that I draw the line at Birth, which is equally absurd. I do not know where to draw the line. That is to be left to the Biologists or (if it comes to it) the Mother. All I am saying is that you can't blanketly ban Abortion. Just because I am not at one extreme, that is not a cue for everyone to project my opinions right to the other extreme...

I didn't "imply", I asked. Your previous answers were blurry at best, only stating that a line must be drawn. I wanted to establish where you believe that line should be drawn, now you've suddenly said you don't know.

Apologies. This line implied that you thought I had drawn a line.

I find the use of the word "suddenly" in your latest post odd... What are you insinuating there?

Was it unreasonable for me to conclude that your sentence "You have to draw the line somewhere" as a response to my post was an indication that you agreed with what I thought were your opinions? I used your rigid definitions and logic to produce an argument, I asked questions for which your only answer was "You have to draw a line somewhere." It certainly does suggest that you were in agreement with what I proposed were your beliefs on "where to draw the line".Your earlier posts seemed to suggest that abortion was okay as long as it was performed on a foetus, therefore drawing a line. A foetus is the baby while it is in the womb. Now, suddenly, you claim you don't know where to draw the line.

This was actually in response to your thing about Rigid Definitions. It was more or less an objection to your implication that I was basing my argument on rigid definitions, when the whole point of my argument has been that you can't simply unilaterally generalise and say that Abortion should be banned...

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your questions. I thought they were rhetorical...

Did they? I never got that impression, although I suppose I am biased in that I wrote the damn things...

EDIT: Tom has just pointed out that, although I apologised for not answering your questions, I didn't actually answer them. I will do so now...

Hmm. Having looked back over your questions, there isn't much I can say. Not being a biologist, I have no idea how "Foetus" is defined... You'd have to ask Abby or somebody... As for premature births, I'm almost certain those are defined as Children, although I could be wrong...

[I'm doing a Biology A-Level, I ought to know things like this... :S]

I believe that they should draw the line as before it even becomes a foetus (yes there is a line, I don't know what the line is but I know it exists and is generally between 10-13 months(if anyone know's anything(say, someone in biology A(sorry about the direct referance rettick)) please ellaborate))

in case you hadn't noticed I was trying to get a record for most parenthasies(sp?) inside each other while remaining slightly sensible.

10-13 months/ isnitthe baby born by then oir it is a foetue for much longer

sorry I mean't weeks. I can just imagine a small blob of cells in a maternaty ward and someone saying "awww. isn't it just so beautiful?"

Since Pinky has failed to provide me with a link to a site PROVING abortions cause breast cancer, i was wondering if anyone else can?
i've tried researching it, but to no avail.

No, I was busy this weekend I was'nt able to but I will so chill out. You could of had some time to look it up for yourself too. I have a life.

He's not lookin hard enough. Why don't you try google.com or the public library.


Here's one:
http://www.w-cpc.org/abortion/b-cancer.html

your not starting an arguement your just being stupid. Im talking about the finished product the humans. Its not like the foetus will turn into a vampire zombie and fly off to live with the marbats of tangor! I see that you like animals more than humans.

nuff said

...HUH? What the heck is going on here? I mean, what are you talking about?

you dont abort animals! nuff said. Dont put words in my post saying that i wanna kill all animals im totally against killing animals except for stupid animals that just eat and shit. Like cows. Thats was all i was saying about intelligent life.

Now that i have explained it, continue

1. Considering you mean 'animals other than humans;' It's possibble although I don't know if it's practiced. If you meant 'animals;' It happens all the time.

2. I'd bet that a cow is more intelligent than a two-week old foetus.