How many people (compatriots) did you convince (so far)?

No idea, probably no one. I think most people have made their mind up at this point.

The thread title makes me think of some kind of trendy hipster granola bar.

Are you posting from the loony bin?

I'm voting to stay in the EU.

lol i think you're putting the cart before the horse with this one.

Staying in the EU for peace reasons makes no sense - look at it this way. Next time anything happens and the EU is a "superstate" it will more easily escalate to a world war between other superstates like US/Russia/China.

For me leaving means possible more or less money, but more importantly people I didn't vote for won't be passing laws that I don't agree with. Immigration controls also make perfect sense to me.

I’m staying well away from your trash, so no.

Why? Can you elucidate?

Because I'm of voting age and I want to stay in the EU.

Why do you want the UK to stay in the EU?

Because a unified Empire can help defend against the Thalmor.

I don't know what to decide. Alls I know is the ridiculous scare tactics from both sides makes me want to spoil the ballot.

Except that you do vote for the EU parliament. Not all of it, sure. But you don't vote for every member in the UK parliament either.

Better move to a country that doesn't have FPTP voting then LOL

Having even less power as a voter does not make it right

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...ssels/22804?44

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/

Interesting articles that sort of "put to bed" arguments I've seen.

I'd like this changed too, but what can you do?

I don't WANT to but I HAVE to, hence +1 to BREXIT.

Couple more reasons to be very much against the EU at this point in time:

1. TTIP agreement, which would pull down a lot of (food)safety laws in Europe to the idiotic standards of the United States, so they may sell their products here. It would also enable US companies to sue entire European governments if any laws are passed that affect their profits. The EU is currently wanting to accept this agreement, which is absolutely preposterous. I'm also pretty sure SOPA and all those internet related spy laws are embedded in there somewhere.

2. This one isn't relevant to the UK, but it is to the Netherlands. The European Stability Mechanism is something many EU member states are a part of. This ESM is meant to offer financial support to EU countries in need, such as the recent clusterfuck surrounding Greece. The billions of Euros being pumped into Greece come from this fund. The fund, in turn, requests money from its member countries to pay for all this. Problem is, there is no cap on how often money may be requested and there is no cap on how much. The request does not have to come with any reason, and as a member country you may NOT refuse to contribute. In other words, if the EU decides it needs 100 trillion Euros, member countries are obligated to pay their share without questions. This, of course, is some massive bullshit.

The EU is a corrupt piece of shit that's being run by people who would bring entire countries to the brink of bankruptcy in order to fill their own bank accounts. The Greece crisis proved as much. And now TTIP is going to fuck over the rest of Europe for the sake of profits and under the table payments.

What?

What?


I really don't know what points you're trying to make in response to my comment.

Your vote in EU matters less. While EU is responsible for the significant part of your country's laws, you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of EU parliment, while the rest of the people are voted by people from countries with different interests, often clashing with interests of your country. While in EU, EU takes voting power away from you and your country.

I can't speak for everyone personally, or anyone on here at all, but no one I know really had an opinion about being in the EU this time last year, or even a few months ago. But now a lot of people seem to have formed this really strong opinion we should leave, when they didn't care before.

I didn't have a problem being in the EU before, and I feel it's a bit strange to begin caring and having this strong opinion we should leave like you've been crushed your entire life, when no one had a problem a year ago.

Again I must reiterate that is merely a personal observation I have made, and it 100% does not apply to everyone, nor anyone on here. People probably did have opinions about it beforehand, but just the majority of people I have spoken to seem to have had conjured this strong anti-EU stance in the last few months almost because they've been told to care.

It's worth reiterating that a lot British people have this bizarre sense of cultural and political supremacy, based chiefly on an empire built upon slave trade, subjugation of foreign nations and military conquest.

We are, in 2016, a middling power with aspirations way above our capability. We can't even scale our economy to utilise the immigration into the country properly. The UK is the self indignant, moody cunt of Europe and it wouldn't surprise me if we sacrificed all the good of the EU to sate our ultra nationalist fears of sharing political power and staunching the flow of working immigrants.

But if that's who they are, then why do you want to change them? Furthermore, didn't you know that the UK has always been called the "reluctant European"?

I'd assume their change would be desired because it's quite an unhealthy mentality in a sense, and it doesn't really reflect the country that we live in today. It's sort a hangover from when we were a more powerful nation.

I'll be damned if I have to have a passport handy every time I go down South.

Remain!!

So why do you bother voting in your country's federal elections, when you can only vote for a small, insignificant portion of the Polish parliament? Perhaps your province should secede so that it can focus on local interests? Or, fuck that, let's go down to the level of medieval city-states!

Because after a lot of bloody history Europeans realised that the nation-state was a good level of government. There's a reason the Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and Yugoslavia no longer exist.

Connel's got a point. I can't pretend to care or get indignant about EU control over some particular legislation. I can't pretend to get riled up about the flow of immigration when it's never worried me on a personal level previously.

I think a lot of people in the UK are the same. It's why we keep hearing about this large, relatively neutral base of voters that are a bit frustrated by the rhetoric on either side. They just want to be able to weigh the facts of one decision against the other. Unfortunately, the impression I get is that these facts are difficult to provide and the outcome of Brexit is difficult to predict. So we get a fair amount of sensationalism. I mean Cameron insinuating that war could come of Brexit or Boris Johnson comparing the grasp of the EU over Europe to Hitler's plans for the continent don't do either side any real favours.

Then these large financial organisations come out and say Brexit would be a very bad economic decision yet Brexit highlight where these institutions have been wrong in the past (as with Britain joining the Euro) and start throwing out their own statistics. You'd like to just go along with the IMF but maybe the Brexit side has a bit of a point? It's difficult to maneuver. And the closer you dig the more susceptible you become to parroting either sides' arguments.

At the moment I'll probably vote Remain because I've yet to hear a series of Brexit arguments that truly compel me the change the status quo - which might have some negative effects living in Northern Ireland and with the industry I'm trying to work in.

The examples you give aren't related to what the modern EU is, though. The Ottoman Empire was, a super-state run by a minority ethnic elite that imposed harsh anti-reformist law upon its many sub-peoples. The OE existed at a time where ethnic lines ran far more deeply than today, and where primary cultures and accepted cultures fundamentally positioned one within society. A Hedjazi fisherman had little reason to pledge his allegiance to a Turkish Sultan who was, might I add, unelected.

Austria-Hungary was again, a nation that imposed very strict repressive policies based upon one's ethnic group. An Austro-Hungarian elite (one might actually say a South German elite, excluding Hungarians in all but name), presided over an empire constituting Serbs, Bosniaks, Turks, Albanians and Croatians to name a few.

Yugoslavia (a successor state of Austria-Hungary of course); another nation comprising other cultures that got on together very well under the fairly beneficent dictatorship of Tito. All fell apart when he died and far right minority fascists underwent a maniacal genocide.

There's a common trend here, and it's not "BIG GUV FALES".

Subjugation, inequality and repression are the evils.

A lack of democracy helped there.

I think perhaps you need to research what a straw man argument actually is. I didn't actually claim you were suggesting anything of the sort. I was just taking your argument to its logical conclusions. If you want to respond in a mature manner, you must either explain how I misunderstood your argument, or why it doesn't lead to the conclusion that I suggested.

Most people voting for the local elections in UK have their own interests in mind. The elections have a huge influence on the UK.

Most people voting for the EU elections *don't* have the interests of British people in mind. The EU elections have a huge influence on the UK.

I pointed that out before so that my previous post in no way leads to the conclusion you gave me.

Most people voting for the local elections in London have their own interests in mind. The elections have a huge influence on London.

Most people voting for the UK elections *don't* have the interests of London people in mind. The UK elections have a huge influence on London.

London is not a different country. It's an essential part of Britain.

London votes for representatives to the UK parliament, just as the UK votes for representatives to the EU parliament.

Does London conspire against UK? Does it want to harm UK in an economical or other way?

Also,
Most people voting for the UK elections *do* have the interest of London people in mind. They don't fucking want to destabilize their own capital city.

You're not serious, are you? I live right on the border so it's bad enough that my phone erratically switches provider from O2-UK to O2-IRL whenever it wants.

I can't live down the idea of having to present my passport every time I want to go to a friend's. Bullshite, I say.

See, now you’re getting off-topic. I was trying to help you understand Nate’s point but you’re changing the goalposts to win the argument.

Also for your point to work, you first need to prove the EU is conspiring against the UK or vice-versa. Otherwise you’re just making up a scare-story to suit your argument.

EU as a whole is not conspiring against UK.

But not all countries ever love UK and wish the best for UK.