Kylo Ren was my favourite thing about the movie. He was a villain who knew he couldn't live up to Vader, on screen or in universe. He was complex. He had a clear struggle which he had to overcome, and we saw him throw a part of himself away to become what he thinks is his destiny.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a complex character.

I just watched the movie last night. I liked it. It was better than what people online led me to believe.

The only other Star Wars movie I watched was Episode IV and yeah, they're pretty much the same movie. I'd've liked it more if it put less accent on returning characters than on the old ones, but it was good anyway.

I liked all the characters, even though it made no sense for Rey to be so overpowered in the fight with Kylo Ren.

Also I thought Kylo Ren was pretty relatable as a character. I mean he's an edgy teenager. Everyone was an edgy teenager at some point. I still am one sometimes.

Varrok I'm talking comparatively >:(

But I think it's a complex idea anyway, regardless of execution.

And yeah Rey beating Ren in the fight was done weirdly. I mean, they injured him, but I feel like that should have been played up more than it was. It would have been better if he pushes himself to win despite his injuries, but he gets cocky and eventually overextends at which point Rey kicks his ass. I think it would have done much more for his character. Still nothing for Rey though.

I honestly thought Rey severely injuring Ren was pretty cool and made some sense. It opens the question of why her powers are so latent? Who is she related to and is shethe prophecised bringer of balance to the force, not Luke? Who knowwwwwws?

The prophecy about "balancing the force" is a prequel thing. I doubt they'll touch it with a 10ft pole.

And while the question is interesting, the movie really doesn't present it in a good way. Sometimes having questions after the first movie of a series is good, but in this case because they did so little with Rey it just doesn't work. They either needed to build the entire movie up to her being something greater than just some girl and go for The Matrix, or somehow tie her force-ing into her character.

As it stands it's like they tried to make her an awesome super-powered badass but forgot all of the important scenes that actually developed those ideas. When she grabs the lightsaber, all we know is that she didn't want it when Maz Catana talked to her but now she's taking it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt like we saw the beginning and ending of something but the middle got lost somewhere. Then again when she goes super mode fighting Ren - it just happens without any significance. Lots of people try to compare her power to Luke's, but when Luke blows up the Death Star it's because he's believing in the force, and it's the culmination of everything he's learnt and seen in the movie.

Kylo Ren was great in my opinion. I wouldn't necessarily call him complex. I'd call him conflicted. He was Anakin done right. Plus I love his design together with that voice. I'm very interested to see what they do with him.

And as for the fight. You also have to remember Ren was pretty injured before the duel. Chewbacca shot him in his side and Finn stabbed his shoulder. Not to mention he just killed his father. So not only he had physically damage. He was probably overwhelmed with emotion and thought he could take on anything now, but ironically that was his downfall.

I also didn't think Rey was OP with her powers. She clearly already knew how to fight from the scene on Jakku and well she was also on the defensive for the majority of the fight. It wasn't until she remember to use the force, she took the advantage.

Also why do people complain about Rey defeating a new trained Sith, Yet Finn; A Stormtrooper. Managed to even hold any form of defense against him? I guess Stormtroopers are trained in melee combat? I dunno.

I've got a feeling they might. But just not in the same way. I'm actually convinced we're getting some prequel stuff in EP8. convinced. But it should be alright just as long it's just used for backstory or something.

Or just the theory that Snoke is Darth Plagueis...

Plagueis is barely mentioned in Episode 3 - he's more extended universe than prequel.

Also I didn't like the way Finn fighting Kylo Ren felt either, it wasn't just Rey. Again, they played the injury in a weird way. Ren went from walking a bit funny to swinging his lightsaber around no problem. It felt like he lost, and he was also injured. They should have either played up the injury or make it obvious that he was just fucking around and toying with them because he thought he was really great and powerful.

And the more I think about it the more I start to think the entire point of the movie was that Rey was supposed to be really powerful, but they just didn't do it right. Next movie will probably have the arc this movie should have had, where Rey struggles with her powers and isn't sure if she can fulfil her destiny/fill some greater role. Then you'll get all kinds of parallels with Kylo Ren - he's trying to become Vader because he thinks it's his destiny while Rey struggles with even knowing what hers is and if she can do it.

Either that or Luke is a baddie. He could be playing everyone here, even if he isn't in line with the First Order. I'd kind of love if next movie is about Luke manipulating Rey's and making her do dodgy shit, and making her learn the cost of power the hard way. Ultimately Luke would die at the end of episode 8. I really doubt they'll make Luke a baddie/morally questionable, but it isn't off the cards. What if Luke is the reason Kylo Ren thinks he's supposed to become a stone cold killer like Vader?

I think Luke being evil would be a good plot point. Him ultimately falling to the dark side after the previous films would have some emotional impact and would act as a good twist if done right. And it would create an interesting relationship between him and Ren. Whether or not he becomes evil, I agree that he could die in Episode VIII. I have a feeling they're gonna kill off the original trio to make a point of making room for the new guys.

If they make Luke a bad guy. I will riot. I really can't see a way of them doing it without it not only being a massive middle finger to RotJ. But the original trilogy as a whole. I can perhaps imagine him being vengeful which made him being tempted towards the dark side. And that was the reason why he fled. But I think it's more he feels ashamed.

If they do it. It better be a damn good reason. Like. A seriously good explanation.

I reckon Luke will be a lot like Obi-Wan. But be not as vague in his teachings. Being more direct and perhaps even unwilling to teach at first. But something may convince him to start. Perhaps the death of Han or something. Who knows.

The popular theories are that Rey was a former Jedi at a young age and was being trained by Luke. But when Ren up and went nuts, She had her mind wiped and left on Jakku. Which I really don't like. it's too similar and convenient.

Oh and she's the daughter of Luke. Which I really really really hope they don't go down that route.

That's a neat idea. Perhaps Ren thought Vader was doing good and Luke was the one who is evil.

I think someone needs to tell Kylo Ren that Vader killed the Emperor and redeemed himself. lol.

Jordan doesn't even LOOK like me :(

I don't think Luke is gonna be the bad guy, but I think it wouldn't be inconceivable that maybe he's morally questionable, after all his training was cut short and he learnt almost as much from Vader as from Yoda in some ways.

Oh, also I bet the giant Sith Lord is Palpatine oooooooh

You're both golden OWI logos on red backgrounds, you're basically the same person.

Oh sorry.

But seriously. Change your avatars.

I think it's been confirmed that Palpatine is 100% dead.

I'm sorry! I did consider changing it today but I can't find my usual avatar.

I still confuse my posts with STM ones

Yoda told Luke at the end of Empire that if he abandons his training to confront Vader then he'd turn to the dark side. I think they're going to at least address that.

Luke wasn't the prophesied one, that was still Anakin. After all, it's Anakin who killed most of the remaining Jedi so that there were exactly two Jedi and two Sith. And it's Anakin who killed the Emperor and, in the process, himself, leaving the galaxy with only one undertrained powerful force user without strong influence from either philosophy.

Confronting Vader and not being turned to the Dark Side was part of his training.

You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

Also

“If you end your training now — if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did — you will become an agent of evil.”

Admittedly I had to look this up. But Luke didn't choose the quick and easy path to destroy Vader. And when he was offered to be at Vader's side. He refused even though the only other option was certain death by falling off Cloud City.

I will say Luke definitely had Dark Side tendencies. In Jabba's palace. He had that full dark robe has force chocked the guards. And he lashes out with anger when Vader found out that he has a sister. All of which he realizes after he notices Vader's missing hand and compared it to his. He was turning into just another Vader. And he stopped himself, refused the Dark Side and in-braced the Light (As well as a lot of electricity).

I don't think Luke embraced the light at the end of Jedi. I mean shit, he got baited into fighting Vader just like The Emperor wanted, he just had the sense to realise he was being played. He helped Vader realise there was light inside of himself, and importantly gave Vader something to protect. I think they really leave Luke hanging in a lot of ways - a big one is how clear they make it that before The Emperor tried to kill him Luke had never seen the power of the dark side before, and they definitely show him as being a kind of angry guy.

Also you don't have to be a big bad space wizard like The Emperor was to be an agent of evil. Maybe if he'd completed his training he would have been able to stop Kylo Ren turning to the dark side - training from an inexperience Jedi might be more harm to the universe than good, if he's really just lining up some powerful young dudes to get converted.

I think it's more of the fact that morality isn't as black-and-white as the Original trilogy makes it seem on the surface. There's a lot of subtleties.

So I’m not long back from the theater so I can finally read this thread again, and I gotta say I really enjoyed it (the movie, though the thread is also nice). Couple of points to make:

Rey beating Ren seems a little overpowered, but on the way back from the theater I was talking with my friend who pointed out that Ren’s repeated thumping on his wound was him trying to keep his adrenaline going – he was clearly fucked up by Chewie’s blaster (notice how it sends everyone else it hits flying while Ren took it and stood firm? He had to absorb the full shock of that) and everything else that had happened.

I really liked Ren’s character, contrary to a lot of people I see talking about him on the internet. He’s pretty clearly got some issues living up to his grandfather, abandoning his family and old life, and the rivalry he has with Hux (which was a nice touch). It feels like there’s going to be a lot more to explore with him in future instalments, with his relationships with Hux, Rey, Finn and his parents all being touched on at some point. He’s an interesting antagonist.

I actually feel like the new characters got a really good look-in, especially Rey and Finn. They’re set up with interesting backstories, they’re given solid motivations, their have personalities (fuck you Qui-Gonn Stoic), and they do get some good development through the story. I’m interested to see where they go with them for the sequels.

The planets being blown up (was that Coruscant by the way?) did have some impact to me because it was said at the start how the Republic was backing the Resistance, and in Hux’s speech he focuses on talking down the Republic. It felt to me like the Republic was a major roadblock for the First Order, like they were being beaten back by the Resistance or that they couldn’t re-establish their governance while the Republic had power? It meant more than when Alderaan was destroyed anyway.

There’s so much more I could wax lyrical about like how I love how they used props and and cosmetics where they could instead of CGI everywhere or how they brought back the lived-in aesthetic instead of everything being immaculate or how BB-8 is so adorable or aaaa I just feel like they got so much right with this movie and it feels so good

The one thing I’ll say is that I don’t think they’ll get away with basing the plot so closely on another movie – it worked this time, but if Episode 8 is a retelling of Empire Strikes Back then it’ll fall flat. They need to bring a new story to the table for the next movie to work.

also what was with the red-eyed thing watching BB-8 when it set off into the desert at the start i mean seriously it never got mentioned again

That red eyed thing was just there to make the scene more dense. Don't you know anything about film making?

I think they could have made it more obvious how Ren's wound was impacting his ability to fight. I think I already rambled about this here though so I won't get started again.

I think it works pretty well as it is – if it was made really obvious that he was injured and was fighting poorly then Rey beating him would have been more expected. It works because you don’t expect Rey to win when she does, but then you realize afterward that Ren wasn’t at his best. It also sets them up for another confrontation in the future, when they’re both at their best.

The alternative was to set Rey up better as being really fucking powerful, and use that ending as the big moment when she believes in herself to unleash her power and kick Ren in the fanny. I mean that's kind of what happened anyway I think. They just didn't want to tell us anything about Rey because of suspense I guess. That and they're going to do a big reveal at the end of the second movie because that's what you do if you're making a successor to the original films.

I feel like I'm being such a dick whenever I talk about this movie, but I also really want to dissect it a bit and think about why that ending didn't do it for me in more detail.

We learn plenty about Rey over the course of the story, they just left the details of her family and her strong Force powers open for the sequels to explore. Which is pretty fair, I think if you answered every question about her in this movie she would end up pretty flat in the sequels.

I think the ending was probably unsatisfying for you because of how it’s more of an unresolved ending than the ending of A New Hope. There’s a lot more plot threads left deliberately unanswered because they have sequels planned, while ANH leaves almost everything neatly tied up but has just enough loose ends to pull through for Empire. People never really seem to enjoy cliffhanger endings very much.

Well look, if you want to tell a story over 9-10+ hours without a major resolution or conflict point every 2-3 hours then write a TV series. Even then a major gripe I have with lots of series I watch, like OiTNB, is that they often lack episode structure. Cliffhangers are fine. Leaving questions at the end of a movie, if there's a sequel coming or not, is fine. An unsatisfying ending is an unsatisfying ending though. The ending of TFA is exciting, but it felt like they were doing even more setup rather than actually resolving anything.

They didn't need to tell us everything about Rey, just more. They could have developed her force powers while someone else was with her to dialogue with to give us more of an insight into what she was thinking and doing. As it stands I feel like there was a lot of suspense for the sake of the sequel.

I think you’re exaggerating now. There was plenty of conflict and resolution in TFA, you can’t ignore that just because some wider plot points weren’t wrapped up.

I am exaggerating. I'm also writing very condensed posts.

I guess the thing is just that I wanted more from the end. There were lots of pieces there, but it just didn't feel satisfying to me in regards to the main character. It isn't even necessarily a bad thing, but it feels like it was just done for the sake of the next movie.

I thought it was a lot like Abram's other work. Pretty, filled with nostalgia, and lacking both emotional depth, and coherent story telling. It was better than the prequels, but inferior to the first two films, the first by a decently wide margin, the second by amounts of measurement not yet created because our minds cannot fathom its vastness.

Oh, and Rey is absolutely a Mary Sue. Overpowered as fuck in ways that make no sense.

I like Revenge of The Sith much more. It actually has depth and character development. And the climax was pretty nice. It lacked Jar Jar, which is always good. It's got some left-over silliness from SW1 and 2, but it's less noticeable.

I do agree that it was probably the best of the prequels, and I honestly don't remember that much about it, but I do remember being embarrassed for everyone involved when the Frankenvader scene happened. But that's really the only scene I can remember off hand that was obviously just bad film making.

I honestly think the final battle between Obi Wan and Anakin (and the defeat of Anakin) in RoTS was amazing.

And other scenes with McGregor (actor playing Obi Wan) in SW2 and 3 as well. McGregor is definitely the best thing about the prequels.

Him and Ian McDiarmid too.

I just wish they did more with Obi-Wan in EP III. Everything about the General Grievous fight felt pointless to me.

McGregor is actually in talks to be in a Obi-Wan film and/or multiple films

Oh god really? I thought the Han Solo film was gonna be pushing it a bit. This doesn't alleviate my concerns that this series will go the way of Marvel.

Oh, yes. That was too obvious to mention. Ian had great fun making the prequels.

Dewit

Did SW7 have such memorable lines? I can't quite remember any.

Because it was pointless.

Nice

I like the fight at the end of Ep 3 because I usually laugh through most of it. There are so many classic moments, like when Anakin runs into a flying kick on Obi-Wan and then Obi kicks him back. That's before it gets really dumb, too. Even when I was 9 and saw it in the cinema I thought it should have ended much sooner.

Does RoTS really have character development though? I mean, really?

Yeah, a lot. It's basically centered around luring Anakin to the Dark Side. And it was done in a pretty convincing way, the movie dared to show Jedi from the bad side (never done in the original trilogy and I bet it won't be done in the nazi-empire fan-service trilogy) and made it understandable that Anakin decided to defect.

It's easy to hate on that movie, based on how SW1 and SW2 weren't that good, but I actually very liked it. Also, I believe being a 9 year old doesn't make you a good critic of... well... anything

What about being a critic of hide and seek?

Hide and seek is a game for true adults.

At 9 years old I thought the most stupid and over the top lightsaber fight was stupid and over the top. It's a very valid criticism regardless of what age I first thought it.