Well I guess you could explain away the latter as a poorly designed incentive to not escape. Probably because they were too lazy to block up the escape route and created a big sign instead.

Not to argue against the guy essentially supporting the same side of the argument...

Would a pop up menu be better for you?

Seriously, stop looking to pick holes.

Believe me, I'm annoyed at the hole picking too. And I actually don't mind the stuff I mentioned. It gives the games a quirky edge.

I'm just confused as to what exactly people wanted out of NNT or hell, Oddworld in general. I see people talk about how much more dark, gritty, and immersive Oddysee was compared to the other games in the series, and how later games are too silly, when in reality, the original had a bunch of goofy and quirky moments as well.

Aye, Jenny, his comment wasn't picking holes but criticising the breaking of the fourth wall.

As for the sign about the workers being killed, I think that was just a warning to any mudokons who might think about escaping, guilt tripping them into thinking that lots of lives would be lost just so one could be free.

Jenny, I just had a 20-paragraph argument with someone because they were blowing an issue out of proportion, and even I think you're being a cunt.

There's also the fact that he's, y'know, immersed in warm chunks of unidentified carcass.

I do prefer the old cutscene, solely because that one animated the transition from the side-facing camera. The new one just starts with Abe in a vent, with no mention of how he got there.

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What?

How the fuck are secret areas breaking the fourth wall? Are you under the impression that the fourth wall is a literal wall that Abe had to break through in order to get in?

No no. He means that his method of finding secret areas is breaking the walls that cover them

Oh, that totally makes sense now. Phew.

He means that displaying areas with massive yellow smiley faces and a celebratory fanfare could be construed as drawing your attention to the artificial nature of the game.

He means the Mudokon faces etc in the backgrounds of secret areas, but I totally disagree about that being that "4th wall breaking". It doesn't break immersion at all...

Also, it's important to note 4th wall breaks aren't necessarily immersion breaks. The tutorial signs completely break the 4th wall, but they're necessary

E: Meech beat me to it

Pretty sure the idea is that it's graffiti from workers that wanted to point out good hiding spots.

If you can explain it, or still be capable of suspending disbelief then it doesn't break the fourth wall.

I think the grinder was an actual person

I guess the argument is that the Muds wouldn't have had a chance to paint them under the watch of Sligs, or would have had to wash/paint over them once they were noticed by the guards. I still wouldn't really consider that breaking immersion.

Actually, the resident Rupture Farms taste-tester's office is right below that meat grinder, so he was just enjoying a sneak peak at future Mudokon products.

He did his taste test on raw meat?

Bet his digestive system loved that.

That's part of it. Those certainly draw more attention player to it in Oddworld specifically.

But also, OANST, we're talking about immersion. I disagree with Hominix in that it doesn't break immersion but maybe we're looking at immersion in gaming differently? I'm gonna elaborate on this more than I should - just so you understand where I'm coming from. So sorry if this comes across as pretentious.

For me, specifically in games like Oddworld, you're immersed in the story, the game's designed trajectory or whatever. So when you enter a secret area, which more often than not in games contain 4th wall breaking easter eggs, you're essentially taken out of that flow or what I'd consider my immersion in the game's story.

I mean all the secret areas are designed for are players looking to get a score of 299 saved Mudokons. I mean surely, at the very beginning of the game, Abe's escaped the Boardroom, the alarms are ringing, and there's a designed natural progression for the rest of the level. So suddenly opening up a secret hatch and being confronted with a ridiculously convoluted puzzle, with all these Mudokons to save before the game introducing you to this feature and the puzzle being disparate with the rest of the level's design is taking you out of the game. Breaking immersion.

Usually secret areas are designed for players to find on second or third playthroughs - when they've already been immersed in the game and finished it. Secret areas are essentially bonus areas. I mean either they contain easter eggs or are involved in tasks like "collect 100 orbs" or "shoot 200 pigeons" or something which are a lot less concerned with immersion than finishing the story.

So yeah, essentially secret areas are taking me out of the main story going "hey look! You found a secret area! Look at all the secret area stuff" therefore I have no problem with easter eggs in them that break the 4th wall. Or brief ads of other indie games - and other games made by JAW.

EDIT: said "or whatever" too much.

I'm pretty sure it's the vent that Abe rolls into.

I think it really is a case of us thinking of immersion differently, so I'll give a couple examples of fourth wall breaks and immersion breaks as I understand them.

The signs in the very beginning, such as the "square button" sign on by the first elevator, are examples of immersion breakers (things that are inconsistent with the in-game environments). They are also fourth wall breaking (things directed at the player rather than the main character) in that they are instructing the player, not Abe. Abe isn't going to press "square", he's going to reach out and press the button on the elevator.

These two things don't always go hand in hand. There can be fourth wall breakers that do not break immersion, (in my opinion) such as the spirit flies telling you to "save lost souls". These messages could just as easily be directed at Abe himself, and not just the player.

As for the secret areas specifically, yes there are fourth wall breaking elements such as the fanfare that plays when you discover it, but these aren't immersion breaking. It isn't beyond the imagination that the graffiti could exist in the depths of a real Rupture Farms. The same can't be said for the "press square to ______" signs. A mudokon wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about if you told him to "press square" without also telling him what a Playstation is, and that he's part of a videogame.

I don't really understand why you think breaking the pace of the intended path/story counts as an immersion break. It's kind of hard to believe that there aren't other places within the depths of the biggest meat processing plant on the planet (or the vast wilderness that the Mudomo/Mudanchee called home) that you couldn't access from the main paths. That really isn't a break in immersion in my opinion. It's a break in pacing.

Right, maybe I should have said "I think secret areas break immersion anyway" rather than the "4th wall". So I can see why OANST reacted like that. I mean I can argue that breaking the flow of the story to give players hard puzzles is directly speaking to the player or blah blah but I suppose that would get too ridiculously conceptual. So apologies for confusing the issue further there with that flub.

So with that in mind, Hominix, immersion is being deeply involved in the game. So taking a break from the flow of the game to do a secret puzzle can break immersion. Because now the player can be very aware that they're doing a secret puzzle rather than being involved in the story. Immersion is not exclusive to a break of the 4th wall. I do entirely believe that an interruption in pacing can break immersion. But obviously what breaks immersion for one player is going to be different for another. Being able to explain the canonical logic of secret areas doesn't mean they can't break immersion with their existence.

Also, yes, you can break the 4th wall and not break immersion. I mean in both AO & AE Abe directly addresses the player but they never took me out of the game.

But when I'm in a secret area I'm immersed in the game in a different way. In Oddworld's case it's the task to save all the Mudokons. But since it's a secret area I'm totally fine with fourth wall breaking extras since most secret areas in games have these. And when I'm in them I'm not really immersed in the canon or internal logic of the game. But more in the artificial task of seeing/accomplishing whatever the secret areas are designed for.

Ok, that's definitely fair. I thought you meant that the examples wouldn't exist in the game universe, which is what broke your immersion in the game, rather than your immersion in the story itself. In that case, I completely agree with you. Abe ought to be running for his life in the beginning of the game rather than looking around for secret passages.

The thing that got me most about AO's reveal of NNT is the fact that Abe was smiling before it's reveal because he was just so excited to find out what it was.

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. This isn't our world, we're being invited into it, and we have no right to say what should or shouldn't exist here.

You come on to a forum of fans that have waited 17 years for a decent game to be made, with endless discussions about every minor detail pertaining to the series, and you expect no one to think they know what's best? Whether this sense of self-entitlement is misplaced or not, it's there.

No one is claiming to have the definitive answer, it's just people care about these games, and they discuss what they think would be right. It's great Lorne has his product he wanted, but some people have the opinion that it's not great. Such is life.

Honestly this is just the same old discussion that's been had a thousand times since N'n'T was announced. It's the George Lucas scenario and there's no escaping. People have opinions. Shock horror.

This place seriously makes me laugh. I think JAW should step away from it if they do an AE remake and let themselves make the decisions they think are right. Either way, people will discuss, and other people will be angry that someone disagrees with the creators.

Honestly, if JAW does the exact same thing they did with NNT to an AE remake it will be the most spot on thing possible and I can't even fathom anyone genuinely talking down on it unless they didn't like AE to begin with. I can see people discussing tone here and there, but since the tone Oddworld wants to hold is the exact tone AE gave us and NNT continued, those discussions will be much more short lived than the NNT vs AO ones that we keep having.

I'm pretty sure out of every Oddworld game, AO is going to be the only one that suffers from George Lucas syndrome.

But yeah JAW, run far far away.

Being overly critical of something limits the experience, but to invest oneself and have poetic faith while understanding the creator's vision helps to forge a genuine relationship, inevitably making us better critics. Coleridge called it "the willing suspension of disbelief", but Tolkien insisted it was a "Primary Belief" or, to put it simply, "Enchantment". This is Lorne's vision, his original vision, so, yes, I expect a little leniency and understanding toward the product presented to us—although, after visiting this forum for almost thirteen years, I have to admit my expectations were probably a little over-drawn.

Unfortunately, we now live in an age perpetuated by negative criticism, with all of these "quasi-popular" internet critics constantly accentuating the negative. It's eroded the experience for so many people, whereby something like a burping meat grinder, or an exterior advertisement, becomes unbearable. This is the problem. Opinions don't concern me, it's the childish banter. It's pathetic.

I can't remember who said it, but there comes a point when the creator loses control of their work and it becomes the property of the fandom. They create their own scenarios, forge answers to their own questions, and ultimately decide what belongs in the universe and what does not. Unfortunately, it's both a blessing and a curse, as it breathes unfound life into a static universe, but it also puts a lot of strain upon the creator—they can no longer pertain to their vision without the inevitable backlash.

Oddworld lost primary control the moment they shut down their company back in 2005, and the fandom began to hypothesise on the future of the series. They'll probably never get it back now, and I agree, if JAW continues to create Oddworld games, they should steer well-away from this forum.

Kjj, in regards to the exterior ads comment: if New n Tasty had been a shitty remake, you wouldn't hear me go on about the exterior ads. It's the fact that it's a gorgeus, faithful remake that might've been perfect in my eyes without them. It just seemed like a stain on a beautiful game that could've completely vanished had they gone about it a different way, rather than removing the ads entirely.

Although I don't agree with the viewpoint, I respectful heed your opinion! :)

It's probably obvious that I prefer to adhere to Tolkien's ideologies, and allow myself to be enchanted by the universe without the need for overt criticism over seemingly meaningless things. My fiancé begs me to refrain from participating in online discussions, because I'm rather radical in my views, but I just can't help myself.

It also doesn't help that Lorne is one of my idols/major inspirations, so my scales are indefinitely tipped toward his favour 99% of the time. I just don't appreciate the unnecessary criticism (nitpicks) of a remake that has, quite faithfully, reintroduced us to Oddworld.

I like strong opinions and harsh criticism positive or negative nitpicky or not because it makes conversation more interesting and debates more heated

IT'S FUN and always a learning experience except when someone completely brick walls their way through the conversation

I think the guys at JAW understand that we are nitpicking, they are not going to be heartbroken about it.

Again it's worth to put things into perspective. If the main complaints the people of this forum have for the game is that there is some slight shift in the mood of the game and some minor 4th wall breaking with in game adds then I think JAW did some amazing ass kicking game.

Seriously the game is almost perfection itself. I played it end to end and loved every part of it.

JAW has a major green light from me from the bottom of my heart to do exactly the same with Abe's Exoddus.

Not really sure how to reply to this, if indeed a reply was intended, but - yeah - some of the comments aren't always helpful or useful to us.

That said, there's a reason OWF is in the credits, and for the most part it's at the very least an interesting experience reading some of the posts here.

We'll see how it pans out longer term. :p

It is? Nice.

I'd say wherever fans are involved in creating a game, there's gonna be a lot of unhelpful thoughts/advices. Just try not to be discouraged by them.

I'd say just always remember that all of these criticisms on the forums come from a deep love for the games. We're all supporting you 100%, and you can't completely please everyone. Above any of our criticisms, THANK YOU for bringing Oddworld back, and doing it with such respect.

See? Like this one.

god i am horrible

Not horrible enough

PUSH HARDER

I'll MULL THAT OVER

Connell, I was just saying that it was a little silly sarcatically saying "as long as Lorne is happy that's all that matters" - even though it was a little tongue in cheek - since that's obviously not the case.

The same happened with Lucas. He thought he was genuinely making the movies better. Whether or not he did then becomes a matter for audiences to decide. That's the way it goes with everything. But the creators of the property should be happy with the product themselves. But there's no point in Lorne pushing forward a product which he knows is inferior. Just as if it was a new Oddworld game. I mean do you think the guys at Valve would release Left 4 Dead 2 and think "ugh, we're not really digging this but maybe our fans will like it?"

You want to create the best game you can and hope audiences respond positively. You can take fan suggestions, as JAW have clearly done for NnT, but ultimately it's about the devs and Lorne creating the game they want, they love, that they're fans of and then giving it to the rest of the world. I mean, the only reason we even have NnT is because the fans demanded it. There's always going to be some disparity between what the devs think is best and what some of the fans want. But I don't think, for a second, the development of NnT became "I like this change even though I think the majority of our fans will hate it - so it stays".

On second thought, I fucking hate Abe's glowing eyes in New n Tasty. They completely break immersion, and get in the way of good story telling. Thanks for shitting all over my favorite game, JAW. Don't expect me to buy this piece of trash. How could you betray us like this?















:stare:

I'd say Glukkons' eyes aren't glowing ENOUGH in NnT. At least in the intro lol

Aaaaaand back to topic please.

Yeah... burping grinders.

Well...

Grinders don't burp.

They're mechanical and don't have a digestive system. Lorne/JAW thought it'd be funny if it burped. It wasn't. The same way that it wouldn't be funny if suddenly a wall started telling jokes to Abe. Even if the jokes weren't lame (They would be. This is a game, where the main source of humor is farting. And burping grinders.) the whole situation would feel stupid and awkward.

The topic is done. Can we go offtopic again now, please?

The burp in the original wasn't subtle. Just a bit inaudible. JAW ain't taking Oddworld down the goofy gutter by making it more audible.

Then you get into OANST's reckoning that is these things adding fuel to the immersion breaking fire as a result of things like the 4th wall breaking ads in secret areas. Then you get into *that* conversation in order to establish whether is is throwing fuel onto the fire.

Then someone brings up George Lucas, Lorne's vision versus fan expectation, nitpicking, and then we're no longer talking about a burp but more about the deeper issues about why some members here have a big problem with it...