oh boy.. :dodgy: semantics.

The point is that it would make everyone happy if they were just in the menu, and more people would likely see the promotions.

No, you get a list of similar books from the publisher at the back. And albums frequently credit artists who inspired them in the liner notes, or what snacks kept them going.

They did. Are they excused?

I feel indifferent as a fan.

"Have an opinion, but you're wrong if you do".

Grow!? Oh no! Because right now, indie games being promoted for free is absolutely the worst form of product placement we've seen in a video game. Who knows where it could go from here

We've already seen how bad things can get, in the triple-A tiers, with money changing hands. OWI are demonstrating restraint by keeping the ads benign, unintrusive and charitable. They're not showing indies how to be worse, they're showing the big guys how to be better.

Because you're an overly-entitled hipster who defines their self-image by the enjoyment of a video game too stubbornly to appreciate that it was made by talented human beings with goals and motives of their own?

>Implying there's no product placement in movies

And for those lamenting this as a failure of Oddworld's anti-corporate philosophy, it's actually quite the opposite. In one of his interviews, Lorne went on at length about how "trust is the new currency". He believes people are starting to see through the smog of ads that surrounds them, and assign more value to a passing recommendation from a friend than they do to ad placements that cost millions of dollars. It's a good direction for the world to be going, and this is his way of helping to usher in that new, post-internet mindset.

"We don't have loads of money, or loads of power. But we make this thing you like, you like us, and these are the things we like. You might like them too."

Just for the record, I do still think the ads break immersion, and would rather they were just in the menus. But it's reeaally not something I'm going to be losing sleep over.

Absolutely not. I'm implying the product placement featured in N'n'T is for, unfortunately, inferior products, and thus damages the integrity of the game and immersion in the world. That's why my analogy included an extremely below par indie movie hypothetically being advertised in one of the most successful indie movies of all time. Like someone said these "easter eggs" will be dead and mean nothing as soon as 5 years time.

Before anyone thinks I'm being a cunt about helping indies out, I'd like to refer back to my original post. I am all for JAW helping out other indies, the idea is great, but I think the execution was poor.

Oh, so what you're saying is, that they DON'T advertise IN the actual story or song? Rather the beginning or end of the piece, before or after the story actually takes place? Or on the packaging? The main menu promotions (which others have suggested and I've stated I'm completely fine with) are the equivalent of those examples. Not IN-GAME advertisements.

I sure am glad you changed the period at the end of that sentence to a comma, trying to make it seem like those two ideas were directly connected. Good word twisting, buddy. ;)

So let me get this straight, I should stop complaining because they're the lesser offenders? You obviously don't like product placement in games, so why are you defending it at all? "It's okay, because it's not as bad"

Get over yourself. I don't think you read my posts, because I love JAW and OWI's work, and there's no way I won't be purchasing New n Tasty. It's nice to know you can't engage in an argument without personal attack.

Okay, we're not on 4chan, friend. You can stop.
Is there product placement for real-world items in sci-fi or fantasy movies set on other worlds? No. Like I said, in movies and stories set in the REAL WORLD, some product placement actually adds to the familiarity of the dialogue/situations (which I already stated an example of, from Pulp Fiction)

In this case, and in the cases you're most likely referring to, it adds NOTHING to the story or the scene. The main character's can of Diet Pepsi, label perfectly facing the camera, doesn't change anything. It's a promotion and NOTHING more. Hopefully you can understand the difference.

Like I said before (and I'll say it again, just for you) this could be achieved through promotions in the MAIN MENU. The average player probably has more chance of visiting the "Extras" section of the main menu than the secret areas. Probably more often, too.

So, you AGREE with me, and you're still arguing and throwing personal attacks my way? Boy, oh boy.

Next time, try to make points that support in-game ads being more effective than options others have posted several times. And you could also attempt arguing your point civilly.

And I'd appreciate it if I didn't, so I guess we're even!

Dude, I literally gave you a blow-by-blow breakdown of your post. You can hardly accuse me of glossing over the details.

I think they work better when people don't take the debates too seriously, but you're welcome to disagree.

Please tell me more about how I'd like to be viewed. I do have trouble working these things out.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"
- Anon

Seriously, though; only one gosh-darned line in that post was a direct attack on you, and that was only because you were making out that one of OWI/JAW's management decisions was a personal affront to you in particular. I don't rove around the boards looking for people to pick on, but you were keen to be a victim, so I stepped in.

The argument is solid - you're allowing your emotional investment to take precedence over the spirit of the franchise. The insults are just to add flair

And just FYI, someone who tries to hide their arguments in PMs can't really throw stones on the whole "strength of conviction" front.
_

So you don't like advertising intruding during the story, breaking narrative momentum, or compromising the integrity of the atmosphere? Good thing it's just the secret areas, then - bonus material. Just like the liner notes.

What you said: "Unless you did that completely pro-bono (which I, for some reason, doubt). There's no excuse."
What I posted: "Unless you did that completely pro-bono, there's no excuse."

I removed some parentheses (which was mainly to make you look like less of a jerk). If you consider that some kind of shameful perversion of your logic, I'd advise you to, y'know, actually say what you'd like to be seen saying. Buddy.

Also, you appear to be arguing that there's not supposed to be any logical connection between the sentences in your post. Should I take it that this is some kind of avant-garde poetry that only superficially appears to be a complaint about ads in a video game?

Yes and no. I'm indifferent towards product placement as a concept, so long as it doesn't have any tangibly negative impact on the piece of media in question. In this case, yes, I do believe we can just forgive and forget; not because of the relative magnitude of the transgression (the ads aren't as bad), but because of the absolute (the ads aren't very bad, full stop).

You claim that we shouldn't ignore small-time sinners just because others sin more, and there's some truth to that, but are you really saying that there's nothing too minor to be worried about? Does every speck of dust on your floor have you reaching for the broom?

But all this is besides the point - what I was actually saying (that you so neatly ignored) was that your argument against letting the ads slide - "it allows for this trend to grow" - is broken. Besides the generally spurious nature of "slippery slope" arguments, New 'n' Tasty can't be accused of turning video games into a cashgrab, because so many games are already cashgrabs - to a far, far greater degree. That bridge has been well and truly crossed, and nothing OWI do will make a blind bit of difference.

... For the worse, that is. The other point you glossed over was that NnT is comparable in budget to mid-range AA games, and OWI/JAW are demonstrating how you can use adspace for the power of good. It's a little naïve, but hey, wide-eyed idealism is what Oddworld's all about.

The expression "get over yourself" is a popular phrase, used to suggest that someone has an inflated sense of self-worth, authority and expertise. It is often used in response to someone claiming that their views and opinions should be considered over those of people who actually work in the respective area.

It has just been said by the member who brought you such quotes as:

"There's no excuse. I feel disrespected as a fan."
"I figured Lorne would never let that happen to his baby."
"Call it an overreaction, but it isn't."
"I'm a loyal customer and fan, and I would appreciate it if you respected that."

Hey, hey, hey. I never for a second suggested you didn't like New 'n' Tasty. Even my little character analysis there recognised that Oddworld clearly means a hell of a lot to you, so I don't really know where you're getting that accusation from.

But you need to understand that appreciating a work of art means you need to view it as something that was built by people, and acknowledge the decisions of those people, and that the work only exists because they made those decisions as best they could. You don't have to agree with all the choices they made, but (with the possible exception of Leonardo Da Vinci painting The Last Supper onto dry plaster), you need to accept that their choices aren't objectively worse than the ones you would make. After all, who's to say that your favourite movie would have been better if you were the one directing it? Even if you liked it more, would other people?

Oddworld was not made to appeal to you alone, and it does not exist to give you something to identify yourself with. The reason you act so hurt when JAW does something you disagree with isn't because you just like Oddworld so very much - I like Oddworld as much as anyone, I don't like the ads, but I'm cool with them being there - it's because you've allowed this piece of media to become a fantasised ideal, something to live by, and when something changes, you feel like that part of you is being disputed, or stomped on, or torn away.

Anyone would be hurt in that position, but it's a position you chose to get into. It's not healthy, and as offended you'll inevitably feel, reading that stuff I just wrote, I'd recommend you let yourself cool off, come back to it, and look at it again with an open mind. It's really not in anyone's interests for you to get so torn up about this.

Even the guys at JAW who didn't agree with the ads let it go, because they'd rather just make cool games.

I do find it quite entertaining that you haven't actually played the game yet, though. Apparently you're ready to assess the impact of the ads beforehand. Confidence!

As I just said, it was actually you who brought personal stakes into this thing, with the whole "I am offended as a fan" schtick.

>Implying I use 4chan

It's a testament to just how gratingly you make your points, isn't it?

And you tried to patronise me by restating the point we agree on, even though you'd already read me make the same point myself! Aren't we quite the pair.

I suspect that JAW's logic was something along the lines of "the extra work putting these devs in the game itself shows how much we like them and makes the recommendation more meaningful", but you'd really have to ask them. I'm not here to defend the decision they made, simply their right to make that decision, and their right not to change it just because some people got upset.

Promise to argue your points without that holier-than-thou "I'm a fan and the devs have personally slighted me" tack, and you've got yourself a deal.
_

I understand your fears, but ultimately we can't really pass judgement on how popular or respected these games are going to be. Sharknado is widely derided, but some of these titles could end up indie darlings for all we know.

Speaking of which, how have these Friends of Oddworld been doing in the polls? Are they leaning more towards the Pulp Fiction or the Sharknado end of the spectrum?

To be fair, in 5 years' time everyone will be using a new console anyway. Any version released for the PS5/XBox Pi etc. will probably have new ads, or no ads at all. We don't even know if there's going to be ads in the PC version.

On my phone, so I won't bother with quotes:

1. Breaking down one of my posts, seemingly ignoring the points that myself and other have made, is not evidence of you reading "each post".

2. If you can't understand the difference between something being part of the actual story, or art piece, and something being in "the back of the book" or "in the liner notes", there's no point trying to argue with you about it.

3. A personal affront to me in particular? It's a bit disrepectful to all the fans, and I happen to be one of them, which is why I said "as a fan". It frightens me how much you trivialize qualifiers like that, and the significance in difference between a two distinctly functional punctuation marks. By switching them, you transformed my sentence into an "if, then" statement. It also amuses me that you consider "personal stakes" and childish name calling somehow the same.

4. The product placement does have a tangible negative impact on the game. Several reviewers commented negatively on that aspect. There's really no arguing that. And the idea that more people putting product placement into their games isn't adding to the problem because it's already all around is ludicrous.

5. I haven't ever said that JAW didn't have the right to freely make their game how they see fit. Also, acknowledging the creators' decisions does not mean that you must agree with them.

6. I'm quite clearly not hiding anything about my argument, as the PM I sent you as it basically restates most of my points from my previous post. I was merely trying to avoid restating the point in the thread, as the PM shifted focus toward the nature of our argument rather than our stances themselves.

7. I think it's safe to say that most of us here identify ourselves with Oddworld at least a little in some way, and I think you'll find great works of art have that affect on people. You own Oddworld merchandise, and have over 9,000 posts on a forum dedicated to a series that was more or less dead for nearly a decade, so yes, even you identify yourself as an Oddworld fan.

Basically, your entire argument is that "JAW has the right to make this game how they want to" -- a point I never once disagreed with. If that's a testiment to anything, it's your lack of ability to take things at face value. Disagreeing with their decision and claiming that they have no right to make that decision are two completely different things, but your difficulty to recognize nuanced differences like that seems to be a common theme in this argument.

I'm done arguing now. You would rather the ads be in the main menu. I would rather the ads be in the main menu.

Note the "seemingly".

If you're so concerned that I'm missing some important factor, then you might just, say, point that thing out, rather than lamenting over it and decrying me as ignorant.

If you can't understand the difference between something being part of the flow of a work, and something tacked onto the side as an appendix, then ditto.

I'm a fan, and I don't feel disrespected. I'm grateful to have you campaigning on my behalf, though. As opposed to, you know, arguing your own views and opinions, which is what most people would assume.

Ambiguous statements with unfortunate implications are my fault, apparently. If I'd responded with more than a five-word quip, I might even feel guilty.
You also claim to be "frightened" by my editing style, which is probably the best thing I've heard today.

You were acting like JAW were personally offending you. I decided to personally offend you. See, the same!

I'm also going to ask why you've bothered numbering these things, since half of them are replying to multiple parts of my post. It's genuinely odd.

"Negative impact" is a matter of personal taste.

Almost as ludicrous as suggesting that a small instance of a problem is going to inspire greater instances when those greater instances are already present and far more visible! And you're still ignoring the whole "positive example" thing.

Also, we've established that I'm indifferent to the principle of product placement, so any argument that characterises it as an inherent "problem" isn't going to hold water with me.

No, you've just stated that all of your suggestions are objectively superior to what they settled with. Because that's completely different.

Gee, where have I heard that second bit before... I'm glad we're finding common ground, but you might want to do it when you're not trying to disagree with me.

You didn't want to repeat yourself in the thread... so you decided to repeat yourself in a PM instead? That's some fun logic you've got there, buddy.

I do indeed. I've also managed to navigate the associated pitfalls, and I encourage you to do the same.
I know what Oddworld represents to me, and can keep that distinct from what it should try to be.
I know how I interpret its various themes, but I also remember that it was dreamed up by a man I barely know, and we won't always agree.
I enjoy the time I spend with the franchise, but I don't obsess over how I liked it most - it needs to try different things to grow and improve, and whether I like those things or not, I shouldn't write them off as failures.
But most importantly, I'm confident that Oddworld is something worth my time, but I accept that it's not mutual. Nothing JAW or OWI do will ever offend, decieve, mislead or insult me, because they have no idea who I am (apart from a couple of the guys at JAW). They wouldn't be able to make an attack on my personal values if they tried.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but 80% of those posts have nothing to do with Oddworld.

No, you're more of a "claim to agree and contradict it with every other point I make" kind of guy, I can see that.

The thrust of my argument is more along the lines of "what you'd personally find more fitting is not an objectively superior design choice"; something I deliberately stated very clearly and very rudely to get your attention, yet it still managed to slip through your fingers.

Oh, sweet irony.

Wait, I really did do this bit in my last post! I know my debate skills are pretty pro, but you might want to check whether my arguments actually support your position before cribbing them.

But I accept it as an idiosyncrasy. There's your nuance.

Dude, I'm done but I hope you had fun typing all that.

Like you wouldn't believe.

Immersion breaking is a bit of a stretch. For me that only happens in games with a massive frame rate drop or a crash to desktop. For me, seeing a human in an oddworld game is about the same as seeing a mudokon in a games magazine. Stranger looks pretty human compared to most of the Oddworld characters (for the majority of his game at any rate). Worth keeping tabs on these kinds of things so they don't go overboard and start having adverts for McMollucks or StarGlukks though

I'm just gonna reiterate that breaking the fourth wall in secret areas is totally fine by my standards.

Watching Livestreams the ads seem hard to see but they might be very clear in 1080p on a HD television. I'm sure Havoc or Connell or someone else could chime in. So if they are clear I don't know if that's them being done poorly.

Certainly having promotions in the Extras menu would be clearer - although I do wonder if there would have been an even bigger backlash from those who find the whole idea intrusive?

Maybe they should just try the Extras approach for the Exoddus remake and compare reactions. Cause I still think the idea is a pretty good one.

This place is so much more fun when there are people to laugh at. Keep up the good work, Hominix.

I thought that was only in the beta? (The SoBe adverts)

He does make a good effort at fitting right in, doesn't it?

By arguing my opinion? By loving the franchise?

Did you guys expect me to continue on with an argument that hasn't moved forward in like three replies?

Did you guys expect me to read that ridiculous amount of text for single posts?

I didn't expect anyone to except Meech. We both stated our points, and there's really nowhere to go from here :fuzblink:

Does "downhill" count as somewhere?

Good point :p

Aside from all of my personal problems with them, they were responsible for some lower scores. That's the only objective truth in this argument.

I prefer to think of it as "some people weren't happy about it", an objective truth that applies to literally everything that has happened in human history.

Well, that was entertaining.

For the record: Yes, they are noticeable in-game with 1080p resolution. Straight off the bat, it catches your eye. But it didn't exactly break the immersion, I simply turned to my fiancé and asked what she thought they were, and we sat there for about two minutes until we figured they were advertisements for other indie games. Then we were right back into the story. Simple as that. They were about as intrusive as a loading screen, or a "PRESS X TO JUMP" banner.

This discussion really ignited though, and I can't fathom why. It's a commercial. So what? An unpaid commercial at that. This dispute makes as much sense as complaining there are commercials while watching TV, or midway through a YouTube video (especially if you want to deal the "immersion card"). Sure we could start bashing our heads against the keyboard until someone heeds our torment, but in the end, they are there for a reason. A necessary evil, if you want to be melodramatic. TV has them to fund their entertainment; YouTube is much the same; New 'n' Tasty is a the product of an independent company, and they consider the only way to survive in the industry (without a benefactor) is to support other independents, who will do so in turn.

Will I be checking out the other games? Nope. Oddworld is the only gaming franchise I touch, due to simple lack of time. Will others? Probably.

I do hope, in the event of an Exoddus redux, that JAW considers an alternative form of product placement, but I'm not going to boycott the game if they stick to their guns.

Definitely. In this case, though, those people especially are in a position to impact people's impression on the game, which could hurt them a bit sales-wise. That's an objective downside to that decision. An objective benefit to that decision is that those advertised games get more exposure.

The point of conversation is which outweighs the other, a completely subjective opinion, which is the reason you can have a debate on the topic. The point of the main menu suggestion was to, hopefully, get more people to agree that the benefits outweigh the downsides. That's only a good thing.

------@KJJ

Really to me, it's the fact that I can bypass any of those commercials by just getting the source material. If I watch Pulp Fiction (yes I love this example) on TV, I'd have to endure a number of commercials.

In the same way, I might have to watch a couple ads on youtube to watch through gameplays of New n Tasty. The difference is, even when I buy the game, I can't escape the ads.

Well, there's a certain flaw in that statement, if you want to get technically—and for the sake of this ongoing debate, I might as well throw it into the crucible as well.

Technically you only paid half the price for New 'n' Tasty, as JAW has bypassed the benefactor, the distributor and the retailer. The same game, under the influence of all these exterior costs, would easily be priced at $60, maybe $50 if you're lucky (for the record, using AUD). This game would not have the need for in-game commercials, because they would be financially stable. JAW is not, at least not at the same level. They are an independent publisher, which means they have to seek alternative methods of exposure, and in this case, its a few simple advertisements to be replicated in the corresponding games.

So, pick your poison. I can sympathise with buying DVDs/Blu-Rays to avoid commercials, I do it too—as a matter of fact, I don't watch TV because I loathe the format. But when it comes down to the cold hard facts, there's a simple distinction here.

By removing the ads, Oddworld Inc. would also be removing their creative control over the project. Sure, hand it over to a benefactor, get a huge marketing campaign, rid the world of those intrusive commercials we all hate so much, and when it comes time to show their almighty investors the project in-development, this will be the response: "Yeah, that's great. But can you make Abe more … human? Oh, and put a sidekick in there, maybe a dog-like creature. Add a tutorial mode too, we need to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Trust me, I'm paying your bills, I know what I'm saying."

An extremely exaggerated example, but it's the truth (as a matter of fact, I borrowed part of the quote from Sherry McKenna). So what would you rather? A more expensive game that doesn't stick to Lorne's vision 110%, or a less expensive game completely under Lorne's control with all of the funds going back into the development of future instalments?

In-game advertisements, hidden in secret areas, and mixed into Oddworld-related advertisements, which you see for two seconds at a time and do not in the slightest hinder your gameplay experience AT ALL (save the most petulant of us), are a small price to pay for the greater good.

For the record, as I'm not sure it's clear from the discussions back and forth: no money changed hands for the cross-promotional billboards in New 'n' Tasty. That should be relatively obvious given one is for JAW's own Gravity Crash and another is for Matt's (NnT's Game Designer) own indie project.

As has been stated elsewhere, the idea of the cross-promo stuff was borne from a mutual appreciation and respect for other indie developers, all/many of which we've met, shared ideas and tech solutions with, and dig their games. The idea was started after E3 2013.

These are developers that sacrifice everything (as we did in some cases) to get their games out there. The least we could do was show the world the games exist.

I definitely understand their unwillingness to be under the thumb of a large publisher, and their means to that end, in creating somewhat of a symbiotic web of indie/AA titles and developers. I'm not asking for these promotions to vanish entirely, I just disagree with how they were implemented in this game. I wouldn't have any problem with trailers or demos in the extras section of the main menu. In fact, actual trailers would be much more effective promotions than a quick glimpse of the box art (or whatever the digital equivalent is), and are more likely to be seen by a wide array of players, and not just those that are adventurous or knowledgable enough to reach the secret areas. Thanks to their inclusion by JAW, I may get turned on to a game that maybe I hadn't heard about, or previously wasn't interested in.

My problem with this situation isn't the ads themselves, but where they appear. There are even trailers for other movies on the very DVD I bought to avoid commercials. I don't mind that, because the difference is that once I press play, it's just Pulp Fiction from then on out. I'd just like to see JAW follow that method.

I truly do respect that. It's great to see hard working independent developers and publishers banding together synergistically. Really my only gripe is that the promotions are inside the game itself. Once I start a new game, I just want to be in Oddworld.

And really, it isn't a really big deal. You could've put them on every single escapee board in the game and I still would've purchased it on day one of its PC release. The faithfulness and the respect for the original truly continues to impress me, and I think that's why the ads struck me that hard. It's more a matter of principle than anything. It's a trend I'd rather not see continue to grow in the future of the industry, and each game that includes them helps that trend to grow.

At the end of the day, it's a small thing, and I have zero doubt that I'll continue to support Oddworld for as long as it's alive. If it were done just a tiny bit differently, and weren't in the gameplay, I wouldn't have any complaints, and I'm sure a lot of people would be a bit happier. Just a small effort of placing them in the game menu would make a big difference to many people. It just seems like a very easy way to score back points with fans with those same principles I hold.

Keep up the good work, JAW. Can't wait to see what's next for you guys, and for Oddworld!

Noted.

They are in with other 'fake' ads for Tasty Treats and Abe Wanted posters scrolling past, they're never on their own or stationary, never take up more than a certain percentage of the screen estate and are always in secret areas, but I get your point.

Really, we thought people would really dig the way they'd been implemented and would really get why we did it the way we did, but I guess we read that wrong with the feedback from some.

I think it's a really great idea, but I'm sadly inclined to agree the execution wasn't great. However, it doesn't keep me up at night funnily enough.

Honestly, if the original weren't so close to me, it wouldn't really matter much to me. So I'm definitely on the far side of that anti-ad spectrum for this title in particular. And really, the ads in New n Tasty were done with more finesse than any other in-game example I've seen. If in-game ads were abolutely mandatory, the way you guys did it would have been undoubtedly the best way possible.

No, what it is, is that people are just getting real fucking arsey over some tiny detail that appears in the game for seconds, in fact I didn't even know what the ads were for until somebody pointed out that they were other indie titles. It really don't bother me, they adverts are subtle and blend into the background well. This whole thing about Oddworld being against selling out and al this crap, well, no, Oddworld is about the little guy triumphing, and JAW and OWI are simply using a successful series to help give other indie developers a little bit of help with some free promotion.

Some people just need to grow the fuck up, seriously, would removing the adverts really make the game play any better?

Just think if you were an indie developer, already on a tight budget, if a developer of a game that anticipated to be a hot seller approached you and said, hey, would you like to advertise your game inside ours free of charge? You wouldn't say no would you!? It's free promotion!

This forum is beautiful.

Jenny, interesting you percieve indifference as being "grown the fuck up"

Really this is about acieving the exact same goal they set out to achieve, but without upsetting as many people. It's hard to really justify an argument against that aspect of it.

A tiny detail can make a big difference to some people. The negative comments on this subject by reviewers are evidence of that.

Like I said, at the end of the day, it's a small thing. And it would only take a small adjustment to make a nice improvement, to me and others, by migrating them to the main menu, that's all.

We've only really seen it as a negative from one review. Could you point out the others please as it's something I'm keen to investigate?

Ta.

Also: re main menu. I'm assuming you're referring to a series of trailers? That's exactly what we wanted to avoid. The idea between the indies was to incorporate small items of each others' games across, and in ONNT's case this was via the Mudokon count displays.

I don't think putting it in the main menu would have worked either. It doesn't seem like people are going to go trough the trailers if they are included in a submenu.


Just by curiosity has anyone seen in game ads for NnT in the other games?

I'll have to do some digging to find the particular video reviews I'm referring to, but the Gamespot review I assume is the one you're aware of. I do think it's a neat concept for a handful of games to all reference one another in-game.

Out of curiosity, how are the other games promoting each other? I, myself would probably prefer if all those games just kept those promos in their respective main menus, but that's just my general dislike for advertisements creeping into videogames.

Really I just keep coming back to the thought of playing New n Tasty 15 or so years from now and seeing Secret Ponchos or Galak Z in the background during a 100% run.

Obviously though, not everyone is going to share my opinion.

Aye, but what if someone who's never played NnT before plays it 15 years from now, sees the add for Secret Ponchos, buys it and loves it?

Surely that would justify their placement in the long run?

Or there could be a patch in the future to remove the in game adds when the other games become unavailable, but that would be pretty pointless effort on JAW's side.

Or even better, a patch to make up to date adds to current games. :p

You've got me there! Really, it isn't a deal breaker, just something I'd rather be without. i felt much more strongly against them before I knew the circumstances of the cross-promotion deals.

Also, if you were concerned about no one checking a "promotions" section, you could always throw the trailers/teasers in the "movies" section.

Again though, this isn't about teasers or trailers. It's about support and solidarity with fellow developers. The last thing we wanted to do was bundle in a load of trailers.

And yeah, the Gamespot review appears to have marked the game down for the inclusion of the cross-promo things, which is a shame, but I've not seen it mentioned (as a negative, at least) in other reviews.

I think once you've been involved with producing a game like this (or the others) it makes a lot more sense.

Again though, all feedback is noted.

I don't think any others are out.

Ha. Jump down off that cross, man. I'm sure the game developer salary that you earn can buy you a better bed to sleep on. No need to martyr yourself today.

Was just waiting for you to move over.