I dunno, they are still innocent. If you want to get rid of people get rid of the people without morals, the sex offenders, the drug addicts, those who refuse to work, the religious extremists, the fraud scammers, the dictators. There are plenty of people to kill instead of babies if you want to decrease the population.

You forgot politicians.

Im just saying that people should stop complaining when someone decides to get an abortion. It doesn't harm the circle of life. Not one bit. May harm the economics if a lot of abortions happen but meh...

I spent about an hour thinking about this so it may be a little outdated. Hah. Ah well.

I'm aware that I'm scratching the surface of a much, much deeper topic here, I can't be bothered to think of all the variables and may contradict myself as I always do, (besides I think T-Nex already hit the nail on the head regarding what I'm about to say here and explained it better than me), but I generally believe that quality of life should be a lot more important than simply being alive, although I think I already said something like this in the abortion topic a couple of months ago.

IMO there's a difference between a bunch of cells that aren't self-aware and a developed embryo that is, and if a child isn't wanted by its parents before it becomes self-aware (yeah, I know that when it becomes self-aware is heavily debated), then they should have the right to abort it - And chances are they won't look after the child properly if that right is taken away from them. But this has been discussed to death and nobody can agree, so I won't go into it further.

Having the opportunity to be given a life by parents who want you and will look after you is a fantastic one, and a happy, healthy person who is enjoying their life and wants to keep it shouldn't have that right taken away from them (unless they pose a serious danger to others - but executing criminals isn't really justifiable. Chances are that if you're in a position to pose a threat to others, then you're not happy or healthy - I think that's a different topic, though).

However, if someone is suffering and wants to die, then they should be allowed to stop living if they're capable of making that decision rationally. This doesn't mean you should be allowed to knock yourself off for solvable problems though, and especially not for mundane problems (for example financial issues, losses of material, non-important goods, breaking up with someone who you were only with for a short time - You fail at life if you commit suicide over those), but if you have a terminal disease and are in a lot of pain without hope of recovery, then you should be allowed to end your own life. I find it silly how you can take a pet to a vets and have them euthanized if it's suffering and has no hope of recovery, but you can't do that to yourself.

Show me a doctor that will abort an eight-month foetus.

Yea... stop treating human life as if it MUST be preserved no matter how bad that one life is x_x I'm all for making helping humans commit suicide given they are in the right condition to do so(meaning not mundane problems like Edd said :p)

I actually never understood why suicide is illegal.... One should be able to decide if they wanna stay alive or not. Making it illegal is just silly.

If they had clinics to help you pass on peacefully, Im sure they may be able to actually help people change their minds with counseling and whatnot. I could imagine that at such a clinic they'd ask a lot of question to make sure the person is not making a terrible mistake.

Edit: OddHunter posted x_x

Like I said... when you bring in the extremes, you can make anything sound bad :p

I never said anything about euthanasia, I don't think that it should come under the spectrum of suicide because someone who wants to be put down wants to die with dignity, not to be hung from the rafters or splattered across the pavement.

However I stand by my views on abortion as wrong on a whole bar extreme cases as I mentioned earlier.

Euthanasia IS suicide no matter how you try to look at it. Just a more humane and dignified way of doing it.

And the abortion issue really is just a subjective thing in general. Kind of like 'Does evil and good exist?'. On a grand scale, no.. But subjectively yes. And there are many grey areas. I don't think people will ever reach a unified decision.

We call those gutterpunks over here. I did the gutterpunk thing for a while, but eventually even my own smell got too much for me too handle. I don't know why you didn't do it, or what that has to do with a sandwich. You're so delightfully silly and weird!

Oh wow.... I think I finally found the word... Gutterpunks. I tried hanging out with them for a while, cos they sort of fascinated me for a long while untill I found out they were just people who wanted to do minimal work, receive free government money and complain about everything without making much of a stance(granted some of them DID take part in protests and activist organizations, but most didn't). But I think they were gutterpunks, since they seem very alike what AIN just described D=
My head just blew.

Edit: I liked one of them cos he seemed smart and stuff.... But he also didn't seem very ambitious ._. .... And I found out I was too shy to hang out with them anyway.

Most gutterpunks are 'DIY til you die' and anti government, and those I've known have never been on any form of government assistance, so I don't know, that's...Odd.

We have gutterpunks in the UK as well going by your description, either chavs or council scum, or both I dunno.

Council scum? Excuse me?

Are you Margerat Thatcher now?

Well.. GOing by the 'never wash hair(wear same clothes/blabla) notion... But I think a little culture of danish laziness seeped in. In denmark its extremely easy to live well on social welfare. At least in that circle... they were really really... lacking ambitions x_x It was kinda sad.

Not legal. For more information on why abortions are great and should be performed whenever possible, watch John Carpenter's Pro-Life. That baby you don't abort may turn out to be the devil!

As for Gutterpunks, the ones that take their persona seriously have my respect. But like any psuedo-anarchist sub-culture collective, it's completely diluted with obnoxious posers like the ones Nikki mentioned. Loitering in public places, never bathing, and smoking copious amounts of pot is fun but it's hardly the big, anti-machine movement many of them think it is. I try so hard to have a "live and let live" attitude when it comes to ignorant kids who completely face-plant at being counter culture, but then I see them at Spencer's buying Cannabis and Anti Flag paraphernalia and want so badly to tell them how hard they fail.

I've had the weird desire to be able to create an alternate universe in which none of my actions will have real repercussions, where I can go on a rampage and kill everyone in sight when I feel really pissed off. I would never have the wish or the balls to do that in real life, and I really do like people- a lot. But sometimes I hate everything, and in this way I think it would be a kind of catharsis of my vulgar urges. Life's good though, most of the time.

We have escapism for that.

Yeah, escapism is basically what I practice in for fun everyday. Don't we all kind of?

David Bowie and Jim Henson approve of escapism.

I love being alive. Life is good so far.

I didn't become gutterpunk because I started doing the punk when I was 14; I was afraid of that dirty and dangerous lifestyle but I think that if I could become punk again I'd try to do the gutterpunk thing.

But I was too close-fisted. I didn't produce accessories or clothes myself, i bought almost everything. And without a job the only thing is getting money from parents or becoming a bag-snatcher!

Life is a bitter struggle for survival, but I'm programmed to prefer it over the alternative.

When Iran blows up Israel and a nuclear war destroys most of the Earth, that's when life will become interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1j1_baQwH8

Never a dull moment are you STM.

STM I ask you again...

Some non-human life yes. But some animals were put on this earth to be eaten. Like cows.
Thing is animals like dolphins, elephants and bees are all marvellously intelligent, more so than we realise. Also squid.

surely an all-loving god loves all his creations equally

Nope, you need to re-read Genesis.

So god created the animals to be mercilessly slaughtered and bred in captivity in appalling conditions.

O... kay?

No he put some animals on this Earth to be eaten, but he also detailed they were to be looked after and that we were to protect all animals, bar the snake. We don't do a good job at that.

What do you have against snakes :( Snakes are cute and they have feelings too.

Snakes are the epicenter of evil.

Satan took the form of a snake and an angry God has really really bad tunnel vision.

Octopus, actually. Please don't eat octopus.

In my religion we believe that god created negroes for the white man to lynch as entertainment. Does that make lynching morally right?

Morality is subjective, morality to a white extremist that might be in your religion might allow for lynching. However most of the world would see otherwise. I don't see how that comes into the equation though, I mean it's a little different, eating meat from murdering black people. Time to grow up.

So we shouldn't eat intelligent animals? No more pork for you.

This Christianity thing just gets more ridiculous each time I look at it.

I think you need to take some classes in bullshit recognition and then have a look at yourself. I assume you're trying to make your own little version of Havoc's signature here, but yours has an even smaller ratio of humour to bovine excrement.

First finish the process yourself. Coming to terms with the falsity of Santa is a good start, but you need to either accept that God is no more real or come up with an even slightly plausible argument in his defense.

Time to grow up? Wow, are you actually serious? Well you see, I don't think killing a black person (or a person of any race for that matter) is very different from killing another species of the animal kingdom. Without citing an archaic book written by delusional retards, explain to me why it is wrong to kill people and not other animals.