Yeh I dunno. I don't know where to stand on SP's take on religion but I'm not offended when they beast their way through christianity. It's funny.
|
South Park's 'cutting' social commentary always confuses me as to what exactly they're trying to say or what the point of it is.
And I don't think it's me. |
It's not, I'm confounded as to what SP's commentary is, what it stands for and who it's audience is. To be honest though, I rarely watch.
|
:
Thank you! :
Now, I have views about the way those with moderate beliefs. I do not absolve them for making prayer and religion respectable, reinforcing and encouraging the idea that they are good in any way, enabling those who would (for example) rather pray than acquire medical care for desperately sick children, or fill the air with useless chaff, muddying things when confronted with religious practices that are unambiguously abusive, persuading us all to say "it's their faith, respect it" when scraping out the external reproductive organs of their girls and putting their women in cloth bags. They make it harder to rouse a popular opposition. I will say that to anyone, and I don't care if they are offended or not. They should be. But I'm not going to crash a service to do so. That is forcing it down people's throats, though I can't help but feel that that message needs to be. |
:
I should just button my lip when I see my boss making hiring decisions based on whether or not they are "good Christian men". That's fine. I should let him continue to think that Christians are paragons of truth, goodness, and the American way. I tell you what, it would be a lot easier for me to let their idiocy go unmatched, without voicing an opinion, if their beliefs weren't so disgusting and dangerous. They want us to give them concessions that they aren't willing to give us. They want to legislate their beliefs, and they want to silence anyone who doesn't believe the same thing they do. I don't want them silenced. I want them talking. The more they talk, the easier it is too make people see that they are wrong. |
:
The Qu'ran was written in such a way that it could be re-evaluated and kept up to date with changing society. Same with Jewish oral law, and Christianity (At least Catholicism) has already been revamped setting a precedent. We shoud fight intolerence within religions from the inside by showing people that the grass is indeed greener, more open and more accepting on the other side. Mocking and laughing will get us as far as invading. |
:
And I have to say that when people are being slaughtered every day because of religion, I find your point of view to not only be naive, but absurd. |
:
|
I just don't see how that can be true.
|
Its not that hard to see.
|
:
If the west starts pushing for Islam to reform in a hard headed manner then chances are him or people like him are going to be pushed towards extremism. |
:
|
The extremists are the ones slaughtering people everyday, not your everyday Muslims. The more ignorant people, maybe not you, push against Muslims beliefs, the more will get fed up with it, and maybe join those extremists, and slaughter more people. Your method of calling peoples' beliefs naive and absurd seems to piss them off, the more they get pissed off, the more they are going to fight for what they believe in. What I think WoF is trying to say is that if we respect their beliefs, the regulars not extremists, less will turn to that extreme, and it might make the situation a bit better.
|
:
The word of the Lorax seems perfectly clear. UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not. Thank you, Mr Geisel, you beautiful man, you. |
:
South Park will always be funny, the way they take current events and people's beliefs and just blow them out of proportion like that makes you realize how petty they really are in the first place. Fuckin' pro. |
I see then, if you're talking about those unfortunate situations, then yes, they should be stood up against. I disagree with all of those things, but I seem to be the minority within my religion for most of those. But this branch of the argument started with WoF quoting you about people slaughtering others because of religion, thats why I thought you were focused on the extremists doing that, not your, unfortunately for the most part, everyday religious persons.
|
EDIT: Missed a page.
|
:
Wanting Muhammed to remain undefiled doesn't hurt anything, it doesn't even hurt free speech because people still do it. |
Nobody is telling them to not want it. We're telling them that you don't get to make death threats if it happens. And comedy should never take people's feelings into consideration. Never.
|
:
Comedy without consequence is boring. If complete cultural cooperation and acceptance means sacrificing provocative comedy, I think I'll pass. Shows like South Park have only lasted so long because they are constantly pushing the envelope. Comedy is an art form. Whether or not this applies to South Park is debatable. All the same, like any art form it will only ever be affective if it continues to challenge people's ideas and beliefs. |
That's the ideal and it's been made possible due to the free society we live in, but you're challenging centuries old cultures and beliefs here. Is it any wonder they see it as an attack?
|
They should cry more.
|
I actually think both tactics are necessary, but not at the expense of the totally free exchange and critique of ideas.
Incidentally, Jesus and Mo, the webcomic. |
What the fuck's with you and your necessary tactics?
Do you seriously think what people believe is mad because it's not the same as what you believe? |
It's mad because they have absolutely no reason to believe it other than having someone tell them that it's true. It makes no logical sense. It makes no historical sense. And it's vastly morally bankrupt.
|
It makes sense to them, and they're the ones it matters to, not you.
Unless of course they're maniacal religious people. Then we're screwed. |
But it only makes sense to them because they haven't really looked at it objectively. And if that's all it was I'd be fine with it. If it was only people believing in a beautiful afterlife for themselves then I could care less if it makes any sense or not. But that's not all it is. Their beliefs affect my life. They affect the lives of millions of children all around the world. And they do so in a negative way.
I know that this is mostly a bullshit argument on my part, but most of you people can't really know what it's like to live through actual religious persecution. I lived it. I was beaten, literally and figuratively, by my mother, my classmates, and other adults at the church for years. I used to contemplate suicide as a child, and I don't mean the "mopey douchebag" kind of suicide contemplation. I mean the "how the fuck do I get out of this" type of contemplation. Religion is the greatest evil that this planet has ever seen because it gives the people who adhere to it the idea that they are just. The only way to combat it is to educate people. |
:
But you don't educate people by making fun of who they believe in. |
Sometimes you do. The Daily Show, for instance, has proven to be a powerful tool for educating those on the cusp of becoming right wing assholes.
As for my usage of the word "combat", well it's a war. It's an ideological war that the religious cannot possibly win. They don't have the means to win it (cogent argument) and their numbers dwindle with each generation. They still have quite a bit of manpower, that's true. But studies show that every generation has a steady increase in the number of atheist/agnostic people. That's reassuring. Now, the object of my saying these things isn't to offend. With some people it is. But for my part, I say these things with the sincerest hope that just one person will say "Huh, I guess that doesn't make sense", and then pass that desire to learn more on to others and their own children. |
:
|
The reasons are genuine to you, but not to them.
|
Oh, bollocks to that. They're either true or they're not. Reality continues as such regardless of who notices.
|
So who gets to decide whether their religious beliefs are true or not?
|
It's not about who, it's about evidence. That's what would emerge from the free exchange of ideas unhindered by meaningless concerns. For example, Catholic dogma (and individual Catholics will choose whether or not to accept it, not all behave as automata on this stuff) demands that Eucharists actually change into the actual flesh of Christ. This is patently untrue, we can observe this. There is also the wonderful opportunity for ridicule in the implication that baked wheat goods are, upon the chanting of some magic words, a manifestation of their god. No one gets to tell me that that isn't hilarious.
|
:
The student is telling me to get some ice cream and have an early night. |
EDIT: WoF posted. Read this as a reply to BM.
Exactly, individual people choose what to believe. And that's what I'm talking about. If it doesn't affect you, why should you care what they choose? And what about people who firmly believe, and would swear on the Bible, that God has talked to them? |
:
:
|
So you think it's mad because it's foreign to you? Ah well, I guess most people are like that.
|
:
:
Sure, criticise militant religionists all you like. But don't tar all of them with the same brush. :
:
In overall summary to both OANST and BM: You forcing your views on religious people is just as bad as them forcing their views on you. Sure, you think that you're in the right because your opinions can be backed up by logic and rational arguments. But they think the same thing too. |
The dialogue I propose, or rather, the environment I propose in which such dialogue is permitted to occur without a load of useless interfering chaff (such as "why are you doing this?") would see to who actually has the logic and rational arguments. I don't want to force anything, I just want to remove this ridiculous special protection afforded to religious idea just because they are religious. I still can't believe you guys buy into that!
:
:
|