hmm wrong topic for your second post Statikk...

Back on Topic:

For some it is a choice, others its it just the way they are.
In a way I think homosexuality is a result of human beings being too successful in the world (I mean the human race as a whole). In other words...not letting natural selection take place and allowing the weak to reproduce; therefore weakening our gene pool.
I know...this opinion is a contraversial one. And no I am not saying that in a 'natural' setting homosexuals wouldn't have less of a chance of survival, just they would get their genes spread about.
This thought of course suggests the homosexuality is not necessarily inherited.
Don't get me wrong, I would treat them as equals (though I have to edmit they do kind of creep me out with how some of them act, but I don't make fun of them for it).
Ok...really getting back on topic (sorry about that ramble). Syd's post about that study is an interesting one...the results of it does surprise me in a way.
Hmm considering what I said earlier here's another question I think this topic should address.
'Should homosexuals be allowed to have children through artifical means? (invitro, surrogate mothers, etc)'

I'd say...why not? If they what to experence the joys of having a child in that way all the power to them.

I dont think gay couples should be aloud to adopt kids. For one, if other children at school found out, their social life would be ruined. Thats enough to drive a kid insane.

1. Sexual desire is a phenotype - and phenotypes are affected by genotypes and the environment - so it COULD be partially genetic

2. You don't need anyone in your family to be gay
if being gay was passed on by a rececive allele then you need only for 2 people with this 'gay allele' to have a child and it could be gay! (please ignore the stupidity of my suggestion that being gay could be contolled on by one gene - it was only an example)


And on the idea that children will be bullied too much:
1. If all children were educated better, then bullying wouldn't happen AT ALL - it's all a matter of improving the education system (and disallowing certain people to go near children - i.e. right-wingers)
2. If the child in question's school is bad at not letting kids getting bullied (like mine) then the family should move more accepting area

No, contradicting is like, Oh I think he's smart, then again, he's not smart. That's contradicting. I already told him why I disagreed. Where you reading?

Stattik: I refuse to accept that you meant what you said seriously. If you did, it is one of the most blatently Homophobic things I have read in a long time. "Don't even think about it until people(most of them) don't want to throw up or have arguments about its ethicality at the mere mention of it" you said. Speak for yourself, you Homophobic Shit! I apologise for swearing, but at least other people in this topic have been tactful in their Homophobia, or have actually tried to give reasons for it, but your reason? "Society as a whole frowns on their lifestyle." What you mean is, YOU and the rest of the Christian Far-Right frown upon it!

Why does everybody seem to think that kids with homosexual parents will get teased at school? I don't know about any of you, but most of my peers have no problem with Homosexuality. You lot all seem to treat it like it's some kind of disease! Why can't you just accept that we're all people, no matter what our sexuality?

A lot of you have said that children with gay parents would never be accepted. Well, I put it to you that the only reason for this is people like you...

Rettick, (not rhetorical question): would you find this chemical imbalance explanation less insulting if it was referred to as an "anomaly" rather than a "defect"? I'm having trouble understanding why it would be any more pejorative than a chemical imbalance that would give one a predisposition for getting cancer or some other disease or condition. I'm just interested in how you are thinking about that.

Regarding the effect of this sort of explanation for homosexuality on gay rights, I think the best hope for gay rights is a scientific confirmation that you are born with your sexuality and it is not something you choose, as in such a case one cannot be accused of making a "deviant" (not my word) lifestyle choice. If you are born gay, which is to say if you are among the Christian right, if God made you gay, it becomes a rather un-Christian act to discriminate against or otherwise persecute someone for being gay.

Yes gay people should be allowed to adopt children and why do a lot of people think that children of gay parents will get teased? Way back in Primary School this person that I knew had gay parents and lots of people knew about it but no-one teased her about it which very much surprised me.

My Goodness Rettick, calm down! If Stattik feels like that he just does, nothing to get all steamed upon.

Your in high school rettick. We are alittle bit mature. Would you know if kids would make fun of you if your parents were gay, a younger age?

If I choose to get angry when I hear something as bigoted as that, I think I am perfectly within my rights!

Doug: I suppose you're right... I just have a deep dark sense of foreboding about the idea, I don't know why... I'm one of those people who thinks that it's always a combination of Nature and Nurture...

I just had the most horrible thought: What if Homosexuality were proven to be genetic, and they could then detect it in the womb? Some of the Homophobes might abort their children just because the child might become gay. *shivers*

And so is he! Everyone is!

Personally, I think not..

Rettick, I can't see how homosexuality can be explained any way but biologically. Sexuality by it's very nature is a biological mechanism, I can't see any sense in the idea that it could be socially instilled or that it comes about through choice.

Yeah, I know, you've all convinced me. I still think that things will go downhill for homosexuals if it is proven, don't ask me why...

So, you think it's from choice or not?

He said he couldn't see any sense in the idea that it was through choice. Work it out for yourself, Pinky, you speak English, don't you?

i always thought that it's partially genetic and partially environmental - like most other phenotypes

Yeah, my second post was a flub on my part. Could someone move it to the correct area or delete it please ? I meant it to go in the XBOX topic. Thanks

Rettikk I'm bigoted. I admit. Gay people just strike me as creepy. And people geneticly predispositioned to be gay, nah. The thing you see in the genes or whatever was CHANGED to that state by their actions. Just as sociopaths frontal lobes are damaged slightly and further degenerate as time goes on, so with gay's genes. By the way, could you train some one out of homosexuality and lesbianism. I heard a study that said it is possible. Hey, it worked for one guy's brother that i knew. Rettikk, why did you get pissed? I thought what i said about gays adopting made sense.

At the moment, in certain bad schools, children would get stick for having gay parents, but this is only because people like you encourage this! And the majority of people DO NOT "want to throw up or have arguments about its ethicality at the mere mention of it", so your argument is clearly flawed.

Speak better English than you Lion Head!

Pinky, isn't that a tiger on rettikk's picture? Anyway, why couldn't it be a choice? This seems like nature vs. nurture to me and as for people being destined to be gay, that's a pretty jagged pill for me to swallow. Things are never black and white and this quandry is no different. I wonder what some of the hundreds of people who DON"T POST REGULARY would say about this interesting topic.

Why are you so mean all the time? . Nobody encourages you to do anything! Your responsible for everything you do!

Pinky? Rettick isn't being mean, he's just responding to the arguments.

Have you ever heard the saying, God created homosexuals so people could identify the bigots in the world?

Statikk, you haven't presented any argument that it's not biological, only comparing homosexuals to sociopaths. The only difference between a regular homosexual and one who has been changed is that the changed one is now ashamed.

Statikk, I've already given reasons why homosexuality could not be a choice. Sexuality is a biological mechanism hardwired into us for the purpose of reproduction. To say that it can be socially instilled is extremely unlikely, for nature has already, by default determined our male/female sexuality.

I'm not sure on the specifics, but there was a study carried out a while ago on structural differences between the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals. Female brains are known to have many "crossings" between each half of the brain, whereas males have very few. The study showed that brains in homosexual men were like the female brain, in that it had more crossings. *forgive my improper use of biological terminilogy!*

I think you'd like to dismiss the idea that homosexuality is innate because it would mean you have no justification for your prejudice.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Sydney ]

personally i think they shud b allowed...alth0 it is true that they shall b picked on but thats only by the homophobic townies etc etc Their true frends wont b like that. Also i heared that gay couples make exellent parents. As they wont preach about how bad homosexuality is like most Hetro parents.
By me...ORYON...(Unblok me plz)

Ha, that's not in the bible. If God created homosexuals, then why did he make it a sin? That's contradicting what the bible explains and God's view on homosexuality.

1. he never said it was, it's a saying, a pretty good one at that!
2. if i had a God, she wouldn't be as homophobic as your God
(oh, BTW, Pinky, what type of Christianity are you in?)


hmm, defintion, you say?
homosexual - Having the potential to be romatically attracted to a member of your own sex.


ooo, Oryon's back! - good point


1. Changing genes after the person is born won't do anything other than cause cancer, et cetera
2. I don't like that comparison, in fact the thing about degereration is quite offensive
3. That's like training people to change their eye-colour
4. Ewww, making someone repress their emotions it sick - whoever let them do that is evil

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Gluk Schmuck ]

Did I said he said it was? No, listen next time.

It's a pretty bad saying because it's confusing and people will think that God thinks that homosexuality is okay, and people who read the bible, know that God did'nt.

And where did that saying came from?

What do you mean what type of christianity am I?

I read about helping people to become heterosexual in a pamphlet at a counseling center I went to for a spell( It was depression, not to be helped into becoming straight) Why is that evil? Makes perfect snse to me. Obviously homosexuality is sinfull, just browse through Leviticus 19 and you'll see what I mean. God wants us to all get help for sins that are hurting our faith and relationship with God. Homosexuality is just one of many of the sins that can and should recieve hhelp for. Vounseling was the best thing I ever did and if their are homosexuals reading this in wisconsin I would recomend getting counseling from Doctor Thomas, a great doctor and a greater man

And people wonder why I have such a severe dislike to Christianity... Whether or not Homosexuality is a Sin depends on your definition of Sin. If by Sin you mean something that the bible says is wrong, then you are just listening to the ravings of 2000-year-old Bigots. If by Sin you mean something that IS wrong, then would you like to give me a reason exactly why it is wrong? Particularly, how does it harm anyone else? I'll give you some examples to help:

Murder: It is wrong to Kill another person against their will because that clearly causes them harm.

Burgalry: Stealing people's stuff causes them distress, as well as a slightly lower standard of living.

Homosexuality: ?

[your turn]

Jesus would not INSPIRE ''bigots''(what exactly do you mean by that?!) to tell people through the bible that homosexuality is sinful. It is not what god intended sex to be,which is between two married people of the opposite sex. I here you are a strong proponent of evolution, why would evolution have people become homosexual? This seems to serve no purpose to me at all. The world is not overcrowded! See Tibet, the tabletop of the world, people could live there . Or in rainforests. Or in deserts. Or in a multitude of other places. Granted they might not be the most comfortable, but the land is obviously there. As technology further advances we will be able to tame the world, which is why god put humans here. Sex is meant to be used for procreation and the enjoyment of married heterosexual couples. God condemns homosexuality as sinful and though you might not see the way satan can tempt people through carnal desires, I do. No matter how bigoted and corny it may sound"Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve!"

Love can be expressed between two people by touching, kissing, and having sexual pleasure. The idea that sexual desire is made by Satan was created by the Ocidental religions and strongly reinforced by the Catholic church during the medieval age.

Most of the oriental religions (budhism, taoism, xintoism, hinduism,...) consider sexual pleasure as a gift from God (or whoever they call God), and a way through spiritual enlightening.

Reproduction can only be achieved between two individuals of the oposite sex. Sexual pleasure don't have this limitation.

Putting aside the genetic discussion, we can still consider that homosexuality is just one part of a more complex social behavior envolving sexual relations between indiviuals of a community. Actually, this behavior is very common in the wild nature. Social animals (chipanzes, lions, deers, antilopes, elephants, just to point a few) have homosexual relationships, sometimes more solid than heterosexual ones.

That was my two cents to the discussion...

To Pinky: i meant like Catholic, COE, Puritan. <- which one are you?

C'mon, why is homosexuality a sin?
And why does God condemn it?
Yes, the world is over filled with humans, why would people want to move to Tibet?

I define a homosexual as someone who is primarily sexually attracted to members of one's own sex.

If we're going to turn this thread into a bible study, I have a few questions I need answered (these were originally sent to Dr. Laura, a moral crusader who uses the bible to justify her repugnance towards homosexuals):

lol to Syd!
were those serious?

"Do not resist one who is evil." [Matt 5:39]
if God tells you not to resist evil then why did he throw out Adam & Eve for doing what the evil serpant told them to?
Christian God = hypocrite
http://www.no-god.com/game/cmj.html
has many examples of stupid things in the bible.

lol, that'll shut 'em up. Well, except for Piny who needs someone to spell out for her EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN.

So NOT ONLY do you claim that Homosexuality is a Sin, but also that it is our duty to fill up the earth, cutting down the rainforests and destroying all the natural beauty of the world through 'taming', before it can be called overcrowded?

When I described "2000-year-old Bigots", I did not mean Jesus. Jesus NEVER said that there was anything wrong with Homosexuality, because Jesus was a NICE GUY, unlike some people. I meant the people who wrote the bible.

And you still haven't answered my question: Why EXACTLY is Homosexuality wrong? You can't just say "because God says so", because you have no proof of that. All you have is an exaggerated, largely fictional book of riddles. If you can think for yourself, you must be able to tell me why you think Homosexuality is bad. Tell me, Pinky and Stattikk. No more evading the question.

If you're going to define being gay as a sin, first you have to explain why God lets his creations (if you believe in Creationism) be homosexual. As Lampy said, there are very many examples of homosexuality in the "lower" animal kingdom...

*laughs really, really hard!* You are so dumb LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL.

BTW, you so spelled my name wrong. It's P.I.N.K.Y

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]

You dislike Christianity, so? No one's going to force you to believe in anything. What do you believe in anyways? The Evolution Theory?

Edit: Why is homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes? A sin is an act against God. Maybe because that's going against what God had planned. Like he meant for a male and female to date or something. I can give you a scripture though from the bible if ya like.

[ November 22, 2001: Message edited by: PinkHaired Mudokon CWR ]