If you think that it isn't about/doesn't incorporate witchcraft then you are extraordinarily mistaken and should not be talking to me.


One other thing.

Let's say that the planets do have souls and are conscious. What possible interest could they have in us other than saying "STOP DOING THAT TO MY SISTER! STOP IT!"?

i never said i believed in it ... all i really meant was, peoples beliefs and religions shouldn't be debated no matter how unrealistic they seem to be!!

I also never said that you believed in it. The second half of my post was directed at Shaman.


Also, why the fuck not?

Edit: You should be thanking me. I just made this place interesting again. Hooray for my feelings of self-importance!

because peoples beliefs are personal and it isn't a type of thing that should be debated... people believe what they wanna believe and its not fair if some one critisizes there beliefs just because they themselves do not believe in it...
but i guess that your not gonna stop ay?? lol

This makes no sense. This is a forum. It is a place that is designed with the exact purpose of an exchange of ideas. If someone doesn't wish to debate their beliefs with me then I recommend that they DON'T FUCKING DEBATE THEIR BELIEFS WITH ME. It's that simple.

Also, it isn't just that I don't believe what they do. I find their beliefs to be similar to a child going to bed at night with fantasies of being Gandalf running through it's head. Except it isn't cute anymore.

From here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ern-witchcraft

You mods are so damn helpful.

And the new thread name made me giggle.

That's Nate. Casually uninvolved yet cutting to the thick of it.

The fact that they are people's beliefs should not grant them amnesty from being openly and critically evaluated. In fact, there are few better reasons to do so. This concept that religion is beyond reproach by virtue of... whatever, is a ridiculous one that is fostered and encouraged in our society by the religious because it is a very effective defence against the onslaught of critical thinking.

We don't criticise them simply because they're not ours, we criticise them based on their own merits.

Let's just hope we have our facts straight first.

Posted this in Prejudice thread as well(Didn't see this thread at first):

As for what OANST is saying he is completely right about discussing how he feels about these things. Like he said this place is a forum for discussing things. If shaman doesn't want to discuss it he doesn't have to.
Personally I know two wiccans. One being my first crush. She was a christian who decided praying to Satan was much cooler and she carried around this book of magic spells. She rebelled against everything and got me into a lot of trouble. So uh yeah... that speaks for itself.
The other wiccan happens to be my close friend who has problems with man fluids being dispersed onto a woman's face. She happens to be a catholic who loves her parents very much and doesn't seem to want to rebel. However she prays to Satan and believes through meditation she can do magic. I've asked her to show me sometime, but we havn't seem to gotten around to that.


@ ssilbyma:
Scientology ssilbyma... scientology.

Dammit, Venks, quit saying that. It's looks like typo diarrhoea.

Praying to Satan and practicing Wicca are two very different things but I think they both originate from the same feelings of alienation from one's family and their creed.

Yeah I know. They both claimed to be 'wiccan.' But they both prayed to Satan. I was like, "... I thought Wiccans were all about the seasons?" One responded, "Well I like those too, but I gotta show respect to the big man down stairs."

Sounds like they were fucking around more than usual.

We (meaning I) have our (meaning my) facts straight. But thanks for the concern.

Personally I really like the whole idea of respecting the earth and celebrating the seasons. It's due to this that I find littering just as bad as rape.

You guys... jesus...... I mean, .....you guys.... :D

Does anyone find it interesting that 'Pan,' the little horned flute playing character from Wiccan idology is so similar to the Christian's depiction of the Devil?

Why is that?

The way I see it, about the time that the Christian religion was invented, all other religions were, by the intent of the Christians, doomed to be snuffed out. One of the methods the Christians used to persecute and thus attempt to invalidate all other religions was their persecution of the long standing Wicca, which is largely a nature-based religion. Their depiction of the devil is an intentional distortion of Wicca's Pan.

Christianity has had a long and profitable career of persecution.

Stealing this Pan's guy appearance for Satan eh? Sounds like Christians.
*uses telemarketer's voice*
Join Christ! We got horned dudes! Like celebrating winter's and spring's solstice? Wait till you hear about Christmas and Easter! 100% original ideas.

As an addendum to my last post... I knew a guy once who was a Wiccan. Whilst he was fully aware of its modern heritage, he treated its belief system seriously and allowed it to guide the way he approached the world, in terms of respect for other people and Planet Earth. And that I respect.

Don't assume I always mean other people when I highlight the possibility/probability of ignorance.

What the fuck are you even talking about? That's the most retarded half baked vegan shittop bullshit I've ever read.




You incredible shitcocks. All of you. Everyone involved in this discussion, much as I like OANST and agree with his methods of making sure the dumbfucks are scolded, you have to accept that sometimes said dumbfucks are unscoldable. Therein, they'll throw a shitfit any chance they get.

Here's a rule that everyone can follow: If someone has different beliefs than you, and acts like a dick, punch them in theirs. If they are completely reasonable and open like EVERYONE should be (but, you know, actually isn't) then you should be just as reasonable and open. Of course you can start a discussion about their beliefs without being hostile, but in that same vein, don't get all worked up if someone thinks that Wicca is retarded. IF you're a cool guy and Wiccan, that's a trait, not a flaw.

I personally don't think of religion as what people would consider "the truth". There are to many idiotic things in the bible that are physically impossible to happen. Magically healing people by touching them? Never going to happen. And plus, is there anything from the Roman history that says anything about some guy calling himself Jesus running around and healing people? Overall, i don't beleive religion. I more or less think that some of the explanations of science make more sense then some old great "god" that is NAMED god screaming to himself "Let there be day and night!" and randomly creating creatures on only ONE planet, but creating dozens and thousands of others that possibly have no inhabitants on them. And about the whole lucifier/satan thing, aparently lucifier was a priest that was trying to stop the spread of christianity so they considering him a evil person, and i'm not saying i think this is true, but it does make some sense to the reasoning for the devil.

Oh yeah, and OANST, are you athiest or are you christian? Or any other type of religion?

edit: sorry for being a bit off topic, just felt like talking about my beliefs.

Yet another edit: (part of) my family is christian, but that doesn't mean that I "Rebelled" from them. And yes, I typed this because I know you will say something about rebelling against your parents

I think you can say the same with most non mainstream religeons that are around today, and aithesim
Or for most fads/ trends in general.
My mum's freind claims she is a pagan, but when I question her on it, she reveals that she knows nothing about it, and is only trying to be different, and attends moon circles because she has nothing better to do.

But this is disgusting, to think that people change their own beliefs, and others purley for the sake of attention, popularity, being different, etc.

Yes I'm aware that there are athiests that are athiests bnecause that's what they realy believe in, for example, but there's alot who are purley so for being different and giving an up yours to the God they used to believe in because of how they think their life sucks. It's not about people pondering their world and giving a rational decision on what they believe in anymore, it's about doing what everyone else does, or doesn't do.
And you can say the same for most of the other religeons that aren't mainstream.

Then again, there are people of mainstream religeons (e.g. christianity) purley because they were told to believe it, and that brings up the questions, do they rationally think abotu their beliefs either, or do they believe what they're told? Are they just as bad, but just don't appear so because they're mainstream?

Well, aslong as these religeons don't harm or harrass others, then we shouldn't have to worry.

Yeah, that's all true, and the people are told to beleive in it are pretty much brainwashed. But yeah, sense christians are of a mainstream religion it's okay to "Brainwash" people at a young age, or they think it's okay.

But I think that if people beleive in something they should beleive in it because they think it's real, not because they think it's fun.

I'd be vegan, but I'm afraid I find chicken incredibly delicious. I don't get why you can't appreciate the Earth though. It's a home for over 2 million different species, not one. Not to mention there will be many more in the future even after we go extinct. What gives us the right to destroy it?
If I moved into an apartment with some friends you wouldn't find me trashing the place just cus I pay the most rent.

Tough cookies stonetooth. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
From now on I am a devout follower of Cthulhu. Because I find it interesting. I like the idea of complete freedom no longer trapped in the black and white world of laws vs chaos and good vs evil.

I know my religion was made up in a book, but then again which ones haven't?

...okay I'm done with Cthulhu. I have to remember too much stuff. I'm going back to Happy-Happyism.

Curse you BM. You have enough rep as it is and yet you insist on making me give you more.

That's not what I mean. Worse than rape? My friend Jordan is going through therapy right now because he was raped by some fucking nutjob from Trenton. I'm not saying that littering isn't bad, but I'd rather drop a bottle cap than be anally violated.

My sister has this friend. His name is Steven, and he's a batshit insane vegan. Seriously, he spews pretentious bullshit all the time and is a huge pain in the ass to talk to (hipster fucktard), but even he wouldnt say something like "LITTERING IS WORSE THAN RAPE!" It's just stupid. Ignorant, even.

True. It definitely is ignorant. I've never been raped before so I wouldn't really know. I really threw in 'littering is worse then rape' just to be controversial. I didn't expect you to be the first one to pick up on it. Guess that changes my perspective of you.

Why would you do that? seriously, no offense but I find that extremely retarded.

Also, I honestly think people should be open and let others be. So what if wicca is stupid. At least it's not Scientology. Wicca promotes 'good' behavior I think.. Except the whole believing-in-a-fantasy part.

if they don't become bad people from that, then at least I have no problem with them. Same goes for any religions. As long as people don't judge me, I wont judge them.

But a quick note to Shaman: If you really believed in your stuff, you wouldn't be so defensive about it. Defensiveness is often a sign of one's knowledge being challenged, and that you wanna hold on to what you know.

See, this right here is the problem with youth today.

I disagree. I find that defensiveness can be a sign that the person is feeling personally slighted, as can happen when someone's strongly held beliefs are insulted.

If there's one thing I dislike, it's a preacher trying to knock off religion ....

Why bash someone for their religion? Why would anybody here try and prove Wicca to be stupid or nonexistant? If anything, that makes YOU all stupid for trying to preach like that. While I'm no Wiccan, I will TRY to understand them to some extent. In a way, they are similair to Native American Shamanism (btw, shamanism be my belief as well), they CAN (And usually do) 'pray' and wish peace for others. That's what I know of Wicca. While their ideas of deitys can be physically impossible, that doesn't mean they're all crazy cooks (Same for other religious person for that matter). Of coarse, we should ALL know that every religious person has their own views of their belief and shouldn't make those stereotypes true.

Look at it this way, I appreciate scientists and their work, but the STEREOTYPICAL forms of science makes them out to think anything they don't know is nonexistant case closed. But when you look at someone who follows what they wish to believe, it makes just as much sense as science. Anybody can say "God doesn't exist" and back that sentance up with facts. But anybody can also say "God DOES exist" and back that up with many facts as well. There's no point AT ALL in trying to make another religion look fake because EVERYBODY has opinions on the world. And ANY of these opinions can, in some form, be true. Science is what humans physically know. But beliefs in Gods, Spirits, Totems, those are what humans try to spiritually know. What the Hell am I saying? Science IS a religion! ALL religions are opinionated, just as much as reality is.

Yes. I went off topic for a paragraph. But I'm a person that thinks people that throw rubbish at other religions are all hypocrital jackasses. But .... that's merely my own debatable belief ....

There's so much wrong there that I can't even begin to address it without derailing the topic with an overlong essay (and I have stuff to do today), so I'll limit my response (for now) to this little gem:

You squeeze two major contradictions into just this little snippet. First you say people are bashed, then claim that we're actually going after the belief system. Which is it? This does imply that you see no difference. I, and people like me, always go for the belief system. Bashing people is ad hominem, logically fallacious, spiteful and pointless. But a belief system is composed of ideas, and all ideas exist in the public domain to be criticised and evaluated. If we conclude that the ideas are poor and say so, how are we the bad guys? All we have done is examined these ideas. We didn't come up with them, and we do not find them sufficient to hold ourselves, so however erroneous or flawed we declare them to be is not our fault.

The second contradiction you make is more of a hypocrisy. You claim to try to understand Wiccans (as if examining and criticising a belief system is not doing that), but make no attempt to understand its critics and just call them stupid. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Be my guest.

On topic (Hah) I rather like the idea and principle behind pantheism, but going and making a religion out of a nice idea is just daft, I mean not that it hasn't been done before....*Cough* Abraham, *Cough* Constantine *Cough* Muhammed *Cough* Siddhathar Guatama *Cough*

Excuse me, I appear to be rather unwell today.

Very false. To begin with, the first few hundred years of Christianity saw them as the oppressed and not the oppressors. Oppression has absolutely nothing to do with what religion someone subscribes to. It has a great deal to do with the ruling class imposing their particular beliefs on those with less power. This is perpetrated by almost all religions or political theology that comes into power. Not all, but most.

As for Christianity stealing the appearance of Pan for Lucifer, this is also false (to an extent). Not once in the bible is the devil referred to as being ugly, horned, or cloven-hoofed. He was an angel of the highest order and so beautiful that you could hardly stand to look upon him. The reason that people attribute traits such as a bifurcated tail and red hue derives from peoples need to see things as absolutes. Evil must ugly. Good must be beautiful.

i completely respect your opinions ok.

If i have came across as being defensive i apologise...i do believe it. but have always had a habbit of saying the wrong thing.

I contest that point, Christianity was one of the first widespread western cultures to make absolutes in this sense, in the so called 'noble' cultures of Ancient Greece a good antagonist, rival or enemy is one who possessed similar traits to yourself in order to make him a worthy adversary, one of these traits being beauty, think back to the story of the Fall and you can see this idea of worthy foes between Lucifer and Micheal.

Also, popular theological opinion (of that period certainly) would cite the beast in Revalations as an incarnation of Satan, and that certainly isn't described flatteringly.

The Pan/devil thing, like so much else, was probably derived from a socio-political campaign alienating and vilifying pagans.

Exactly what point are you contesting? I said people. Not people of a certain era. I don't do it so I obviously don't think all people do. Once again, I seem to draw people who wish to debate things I say just to debate them without actually considering what they are saying. Your post has no relevance to mine.

And nothing I have ever read has ever seen the beast from Revelation as being Satan. And I have read quite a bit on the subject.

Do you really think that they laid out a plan with the intent of "alienating" a people that they were already stoning and burning? Isn't it much more likely (and true) that they merely saw the unattractive as being of the devil and the foolish, frightened people attributed drawings they saw of pagan gods as being the devil manifest?

Don't make the mistake of assuming people from history are simple minded caricatures of human beings. They have scandals and politics and commentary and machinations and popular culture just like we do.