Fail = You for rising up to my comments, which incidentally are correct, every time i post them.

It is impossible to be racist against something which is not a race. Religions aren't races, Islam is not a race.

Hobo, you suck. Hard.

Well sooooorrryyy, but I use the word racist since religism probably isn't even a word.

On the contrary, all religion has is people, and is only as good and as bad as its believers.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam is 'evil' (you know what I mean). But to say that any Muslim who, for instance, believes in the rights of women is somehow perverting the nature of Islam, and is therefore, effectively, irrelevant to the discussion is ridiculous. You KNOW any religion has many different interpretations, persuasions, and levels of importance dealt to certain institutions. Come on, Pat, you just know this. You're making this far too simple a world. You just come across as a ranting fanatic.

This is a true post.

It's not a matter of discrimination, it's a matter of the English fucking language PV.

I side with Hobo.

PV, urgayol.

This is pointless. It's now just a reason for Patty to get off on belittling Islam.

Do you actually know any Muslims, Pattrick?

You Hobo are idiotic and are too cowardly to debate.. so you result to name calling; a bit like this http://images.cafepress.com/product/...x240_Front.jpg

Wow, totally didn't see one of them comments coming.

He's just giving you the reply you deserve, frankly. And where's your debate, exactly? This very instance you ignored the more reasoned post (that was mine, by the way) in favour of posting another of your hiiiiiigh-larious picto-insults.

Come on! This is turning into a flame-fest! It's like having a friggin manhunt in UT with flamethrowers and PV is the hunted!
PV:Your bratty anti-comments to justify your posts don't work and make you look like matthew9r. Honestly!

Don't moan about something turning into a bitchfest then ADD TO IT, bozo.

Why would I add to a bitchfest and get an infraction along with everyone else?

To keep slightly ontopic, I think it's not the matter of religion, it's the matter of people.

Drop the "you know what I mean" act. Do you think I don't know the definition of evil? I damn well know that. I know that every school of Islamic jurispredence holds to the value of literal physical Jihad, even the Sufis. I know that the apostate MINOs have no metaphysical or physical leg to stand on. I know that the people who made Islam, who made Allah, who made Muhammad a prophet, were scum of the earth, raiders, pedophiles, rapists, misogynists, vile, evil people.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013367.php
http://www.jihadwatch.com/dhimmiwatc...ves/001462.php
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=15459
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.../flatearth.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/155987.php

Also, Hobo has shown zero ability to debate beyond narcissism, bad logic, and ad hominem. Thus, I'm blasting him for his stupidity.

...And here's the point I simply stop bothering. You haven't addressed my points, you've gone purely off into your la-la land of pseudo-intellectual bollocks. And the point of the "(you know what I mean)" is to indicate my discomfort in using the term, not as a reflection upon anyone else.

Shut the fuck up, fat man. This isn't your business.

And to the contrary, this is far from a flaming thing (aside from Hobo). Although the tone of PV's and MF's posts is rather aggressive, they are still maintaining a perfectly fine debate.

And Patrick, for the third time, have. You. Ever. Met any actual Muslims once in your life?

I think the experiences of myself are not sufficient enough to count as significant evidence. Let's avoid the whole "do you know Muslims" schtick and stick to the big picture.

http://www.memri.org/
Lovely, peaceful Muslims there.
http://www.memritv.org/
More too.

Can't you feel the looove? The lovely racism, anti semitism, Judeophobia, Christophobia, Bush Derangement Syndrome, Ameriphobia, and FellowMuslimophobia.

Which translates to "If I answer your question truthfully, people will REALLY start to doubt my reason, so I'm shoving it to the side."

Your life experiences have everything to do with this. You can post as many fucking weblinks and unfunny pictures as you want, but there is no substitute for life experience. You call thes people barbaric, ruthless, diluded, and pure evil, but tell me, for the sake of satisfying my own arrogant, buddha-loving curiosities, have you ever experienced a personal, physical encounter with these people? Have you so much as said "good morning" to one while walking down the street? The more you push it off, the more I think your knowledge of them is all based on news reports and hate websites. As Buddha once said, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

I can make up stories. I, and the people I source, can't make up news. They can't make up what's shown on the sources, and their sources corroborate. To quote Gil Grissom from the show CSI: The evidence never lies.

I have read the Qur'an.I HAVE NEVER DIRECTLY ENCOUNTERED A MUSLIM. MY CRITICISM IS WITH ISLAM, NOT MUSLIMS. I MAINTAIN A HEALTHY SKEPTICISM OF THE "TINY MINORITY OF EXTREMISTS" and "VAST MAJORITY OF MODERATE MUSLIMS" PROPAGANDA. I have seen what happens on Muslim websites, what happens in areas the mass media doesn't show. I have seen significant and irrefutable evidence the Qur'an is violent, evidence from the Haditha that Muhammad was a pedophile, evidence from countless thousands of news reports, most from liberal or centrist newspapers, some even from Islamic newspapers, that Islam bears the most fruits of violence I have ever seen.

I have seen death cultists shrieking and murdering because the pope calls a spade a spade. I have seen people murdered and attempted to be murdered. Islam is as offensive to my values as Satanism and child rape. Islam is incompatible with the values of the best damn civilization in the world, the West. Islam is incompatible with human rights, democracy, and freedom. Islam must coerce in order to survive, like an evil disease, a virus of the mind. Christianity does not coerce people in today's world. Christianity's core texts are not anymore than a third as violent as the Qur'an. Christianity's founder was a Jewish eschatologist proclaiming a message of peace and that he was God. At worst, he was a raving, deluded nut. At best, he was God. Or more accurately, he either was a ravng deluded nut, or God.

Nice try with the "hate website" canard. They source largely from mainstream and Muslim sources, and I have a quote right here from Khomeini, one of the most respected and high ranking people in Islam (albeit deceased), that pretty much nails it;
“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Art...e.asp?ID=15983

When did Khomeni become a source on Islam?
 

I'm sorry to butt in here, but since when has Khomeni been an authentic source on what Islaam is or isn't? This is the man that was disgraced by God in his own funeral procession.

You say you've read the Qur'aan and hadith; is that the whole Quran page to page, verses by verse from Chapter 1 to Chapter 114? Or selective verses you've read on faithfreedom.org?

Okay yes the Qur'aan does urge the belivers to fight; Only after they had been persecuted, oppressed and driven out of their homes. The early muslims had to flee their homes in Makkah and move to the city of Yathrib.

And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in God. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower. (Al-Qur'aan 8:61)

Say: "O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) submit (to God's Will). (Al-Qur'aan 3:64)

If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient. (Al-Qur'aan 16:126)

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" (Al-Qur'aan 4:75)

These few verses above show the true nature of warfare or jihad in Islaam; one which is employed only to defend those who are oppressed and only pursued until peace is found.

I could go on and give you hundreds of more verses, but I'm going to leave it at that.

The core message of the Qur'aan is not Jihad; but rather a message to humanity to return back to the WORSHIP of the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, alone and without partners. Islaam at its core stresses the monotheistic nature of God who has no equal, is not begot and does not beget.

Islaam is the attainment of true inner peace by submitting alone to the God of Noah and his children.

It is not a cult.

It is the essence of monotheism preached by all of the prophets of God.

And it is your choice to take it or leave it - that is the free-will given to you by God.

Ooh... an educated poster on OWF? We can't have that!

*banzored*

Khomeini is as authoritative on Islam as the Pope is on Catholicism. He is a highly respected leader. The peaceful, Meccan verses are abrogated by the violent Medinian ones;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013367.php

Islam means submission. Try preaching your message of peace to an Imam or an Iranian square.

Pat my friend. Just admit you got owned. Even if you don't believe a thing he said you should still be able to see how badly you got burned. BURNED DUDE! BURNED!!!

PS: Jesus buried fossil fuels into the world for us to use, he doesn't know where the dinosaurs came from though.

No, he posted abrogated verses and urges to follow his fictionalized hippy version of his equally fictional deity.

How the hell can Allah be YHVH when Allah claims to not be triune and to be Jesus, attributes of YHVH?

When did Jesus himself claim to be YHVH? And when did the God of Moses ever claim to be triune? And how can the one God of the Israelites be triune? Allah is the arabic word for God; ask any arab christian or jew what they call God and you will hear them say Allah. Pick up an Arabic copy of the bible and what will God be called; Allah. Watch the "Passion of the Christ" and you will hear that the aramaic word for God is Allaha.

The Passion of the Christ is about as historically accurate to the Gospels and other history as the Creation Museum is accurate to science.

As for Jesus' claims;
John 10:30
I and the father are one.
(http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims...claimshub.html)
For the trinity;'http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html

I consider the deity of Islam, Allah, different from the name of God used by followers of YHVH. So to me, there are two Allah's, one the god of Islam who is different from YHVH in personality and nature, and the other another name for YHVH.

WTF I just got this in a PM:

Hello,
I'm new here and just wanted to say "hi"

How's it going?

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things as a meaningful unity" - Albert Einstein


What?

LOL Who's this? Get him/her to PM me.

Pat, you're a silly bitch.

And "submission" may have a negative connotation, but it's not always a bad thing. If everyone would simply understand that they're not the most omnipotent, clever son of a bitch in the galaxy, whether it's by bowing down to a god or just being smart enough to realize that you aren't that damn smart, then we wouldn't have to put up with so many arrogant, intolerant, and sickeningly smug assholes like George W. Bush, Havoc, and (apparently) you.

And while everyone is quoting scripture:

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride,
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side,
You may be workin' in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair,
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

-Bob Dylan

Truer words never spoken, no matter what piece of holy literature you subscribe to.

The irony meter just imploded so hard it hit Cthulhu in the stomach, impregnated him, and caused the FSM to laugh and destroy 30 megaversi.

Seriously, tell THAT to the Ayatollah or any Iranian, Saudi Arabian, or even British Islamic clergyman. I dare you, but don't go crying to me if you end up finding out if the 72 Virgins are real.

There is nothing ironic about what I have said. I don't claim to know everything. I don't even claim to fully know my place in the universe. However, what I do know is that a little bit of humility, in most cases, goes a long way.

And don't go thinking that I'm defending extremist Islam either. They need a chill-pill to get rid of that overzealous self-righteousness more than anyone. What I was specifically referring to was you're attack against Incognito, who has (so far) only given you a fair, well thought-out argument, yet you feel the need to slander him with crap like I quoted above just as much as you actually try to refute his points. Like you fucking know him and his specific religious practices personally or something. Just really uncalled for stuff.

I'm also glad that Cthulhu is now a running joke on the forum. I would like to claim partial responsibility. I encourage all of the sci-fi/horror fans on this forums to read Lovecraft.

I wasn't slandering him. I was pointing out that his philosophy is essentially a "sounds great on paper, but never works out in reality" theory. Sort of like leftism.

Eeeeh. Pointless. Delete please.

Uhhh... What I just can't get about religion, is why humans find it so necessary to beleive in stuff like gods, to follow other beings. I have my own mistress, but she's more of a girlfriend. I'm not following religion, but I'm not athiest, either. Is this possible?

Damnit, Cthulhu makes more sense then this debate, if you could call it that.

We just do. It's just nice to know there's something out there more powerful than us who we can look up to when things look grim.
Dunno. Do you believe in a higher power (apart from your g/f :P)?

I believe some gods are crutches, other gods are crack dreams, a few gods are real, but in a Star Trek way, and one God is real.

You're an agnostic. If by religion you mean organized religion, then you are a Deist or Open Theist or Pantheist or Matriolater.

So our consciousness doesn't become eternally nonexistant.

I don't believe in god, but I won't doubt his existance. If you really look at things from the largest picture that we can comprehend, the universe itself, existance itself, you wonder. How did our entire sprectrum of existance come into play? Beyond the big bang, before that. What the is the reason for anything and everything?

One thing that has always pissed me off about Christianity is how they claim God to be an "infinately compassionate being." A god that sends a majority of the population to an eternal Hell fire doesn't sound very ****ing compassionate to me. There is not a ****ing thing humans can do on this world to warrant them an eternity of suffering. Not even Hitler. What he did was wrong in everyone's minds, but he believed in his heart what he was doing was right.

MOD EDIT: This post and several following it have been moved from here.

Bull. Shit.

thereligionofpeace.com
jihadwatch.org
littlegreenfootballs.com
faithfreedom.org
prophetofdoom.net
cairbaby.com


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...amberlain2.jpg

Yea nice way to list a bunch of biased websites, all of which created after 9/11.
Are you to stupid to realize that terrorism has always been around? It's been around for centuries! Blow up a train here, blow up a car there. You hear about it burried somewhere in the news and it blows over after a week or so. But when two trademark towers come down after an attack (which to this day btw, is still very vague) on the soil of the biggest military power on earth, terrorism needs to be in the spotlight and all Muslims are automaticaly labled a potential threat. THINK!!!!!!! You F*CKING moron! If ANYTHING 9/11 would have put an end to terrorism all over the western world for the sole reason that everyone is aware of it and looking out for it now. Compare records from the last 6 years to the 6 years before 9/11, they are either a straight line or a downhill line. Anything BUT up. The only increase in attacks will be in Afghanistan and Iraq but guess why that is... because the Americans are there on holy soil. gee, big surprise.

Go form your own goddamn opinion instead of taking it from a bunch of bias bloggers who have nothing better to do then watch cnn.com all day long and post all the recent updates that involve a Muslim and make witty comments after each goddamn paragraph that have no debatable value what so ever. Get some real facts.