Awesome, that is all I can say.

Yah...that was me. And thank you for furthering what I pointed out.

Anyway, I'd also like to make sure you all know that I'm not trying to push anything down anyone's throat. I'm happy living my way...you all seem to be happy with yours. We cool.

-oddguy

(hardly read anything on here) Even though i have a different religion from PA, i agree. Being gay isnt a natural birth thing or w/e, it is always "discovered" later in life. its just a conversion to a different belief. go ahead, prove what i just said is wrong.
anywho, before i get flamed down like a dog, i conclude this post, with a qoute.

"Don't be gay, Spark. Don't be gay."

Can I ask you something? Were you aware of gay people when you were a tiny kid? Kids, unless they have gay parents or relatives, are only exposed to the heterosexual adult relationship concept. Most kids aren't really introduced to this concept or whatever you'd like to call it until a little before their pre-teen years. I'd say I first learned that some people actually feel attracted to their own sex when I was in 3rd grade. Heck, at that time I was still pretty grossed out by both sexes. That's how most people are, so it makes since that people "discover" their homosexuality later in life.

appearantly you can ask me something, and no i didnt.

Hey, I didn't make this thread. I made that comment you'll see at the top of the thread in that thread about that guy being bisexual (I don't know who he is!), and because I had taken away from the topic so much, the thread had to be split.
Although I must say, it's the best opener for a thread that I've seen.

(here goes...) I'm not going to go into a discussion on the differences between Judaism and Christianity. The point I was trying to get across with my previous post was not to judge the Old Testament on the literal meaning. The most important thing about a religion is not the texts it is based on but rather how those texts are utilised to create the ethos of that religion. Look at all the different denominations of Christianity who all base themselves on the New Testament. How can you compare a Russian Orthodox person to a Southern Baptist?

This must be the best thread in the history of the Forums.

I believe homosexuality is something that one is predisposed towards from birth. This doesn't mean that somebody is born homosexual and will die homosexual. I think a person could be born predisposed toward homosexuality but maybe if they were never exposed to the concept it would never surface. On the other hand, someone could appear to develop homosexuality, when in fact something has simply come to the surface that has been present the entire time. So maybe it's a combination of "nature" and "nurture." . . . Okay, that sounds pretty unfounded. But there has been no scientific proof as to the nature of homosexuality, so I don't think anyone can conclusively say I'm wrong. Unless they were, themself, homosexual and could scientifically analyze their own life and come up with something. Anyway.

I've probably said this before, but I don't think God is any kind of authority. I think that, if God does exist, it is the product of a collection of human minds, and not the source. Whether it is real or imagined makes no difference, because the only impact it has is on the minds that create or recognize it.

And besides, I've always hated authority. :p Maybe if God does exist he should mind his own damn business and let us get on with our lives.

EDIT: Interesting factiod that I just learned from my mom. Apparently Muslims believe in the same god as do Christians and Jews. Somebody should tell all the soldiers going over to Iraq that little bit of information. It might slightly alter a few ideas and perceptions. Of course, 90 percent of the people who learned that would probably blatantly deny it and angrily declare it an attack on Christianity, but somebody should still try.

This debate is boring. There are too many people on the same side. Someone needs to at least play devil's advocate (har har).

Bwah ha ha ha ha! Joe, you are a source of endless amusement. That thing about the Tree of Knowledge. . . pure genius.

On this topic...

The best analogy for this I've ever heard came from a Jewish Hollocaust survivor. Simply put, you can look at an object with both eyes. You close one, and the object appears in a different position, yet it's still in the same place. Swap eyes, and once again, it looks like it moves. Yet once again, it's still in the same place. In other words, God is the same being, just viewed from different perspectives.

Oh, and "An eye for an eye" is extremely literal. Hammurabi's Code was crude and blunt, and meant everything it said.

The argument some of you are using, that homosexuals do indeed choose, is rubbish. I'll explain:

The realisation of one's sexual orientation is once again, another chemical factor. Firstly, you must know what puberty essentially is to understand what I'm going to explain. In understandable terms, puberty is the period in which our bodies and minds are altered through the excited release of hormones. Things such as height, weight, whether pimples will appear (etc) are all results of chemicals, specifically, the encoded data in DNA. Sexual orientation is just one more factor, exactly like height.

During puberty, this data is accessed, and the necessary changes take place. You start to grow more, you might grow pubic hair, or you might not. Along with these, the brain changes, in relation to this topic, 10% of the population realise that they are homosexual.

That is why the majority of homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders (etc) are 'awoken' to it. The reason most humans play 'lovingly', and appear to have a 'loving' relationship with the opposite sex during the pre-pubescent years, is simply society's impact on our perception of the world. Children grow up in the mindset that they are only to be attracted to the same sex, and as children, we're too young to know any better - we act as if we are in love with females because it's on TV, because our parents are that way, because our friends' parents are that way.

I also find this to be very interesting, and from what I've read of it, I've heard the same arguments in proper publications: http://www.bidstrup.com/phobiahistory.htm

Alcar...

I don't usually get involved ... but erm, what the hell.

Okay, well in cases like this I like to give the example of my mum. She is one of the most devout Christians I have ever known, but she is also a very open minded Christian. And she too holds the belief that people are born with homosexual tendancies, just like people are born with hetrosexual ones. She says that the people are who they are, and if they are homosexual, then that is how they are.

So I agree with this also. One has to differentiate between those who are naturally homosexual to those who just say they are "gay" or "bi" because they think they are cool, etc. I've always said that a person can't help how they feel ... and if an individual is attracted to the opposite sex, then that is how they are. Look at it this way ... how come you as an individual may be attracted to a particular person, but your friend may think they are ugly as hell. Same with when you love someon, you can't force yourself to love them, nor can you force yourself to not love them. So it's the same if you are homosexual ... you have those feelings because they are just there.

On the bible stuff, I'm not very up on biblical stuff even though I went to church as a kid/teenager. But if I'm not wrong, I think that much of the rules in the old testament were over-ruled by the new testament. One of them I know is where certain foods were "unclean" in the old testament and in the new testament there is a part where it says "Jesus declared all foods clean". It's like women weren't supposed to come in contact with other people when it was "that time of month". I don't know what was over-ruled and what wasn't ... but the new testament is a progression from the old, so old laws have changed. So now that we are in a newer age, things are different again.

Abe Babe...

That is a very important fact. The verses that condemn homosexuality, among other things (like eating pork, no two types of cloth in a piece of clothing, etc) were applicable when humanity was under the law, essentially, the Old Testament. What most Christians don't realise, is that we are now under grace. When Christ sacrificed himself on the Cross, he ended all sin. From then on, we were under the grace, or forgiveness of God. Laws from the Old Testament which were used to purify one self were no longer necessary. However, there are those that still apply. And those are often mentioned in the New Testament.

If you don't believe me, you can read Romans I or II to check what I've just said.

I'll add, that I am also a Roman Catholic. I study religion quite vigorously, and usually top everything to do with it. I also happen to be an altar boy, and I'm damn good at it if I don't say so myself - considering I've been doing it since I was eight and a half. I know the mass inside out, I've done the Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, and Asumption masses as long as I can recall - all in good stride. I'm not boasting, I'm simply reminding those who dismiss my opinions so freely that I am heavily influenced by the Church. Just like you. I just don't allow myself to be brainwashed.

Alcar...

I actually have a friend who's bent and thought about becoming a Christian. He said, when i asked about him having to live a lie, that he'll -

"Carry on being Gay and doing the things i enjoy, but just be sorry if it upsets God in anyway."

which i think is one of the better ways for being Christian. Do everything possible to have a full and adventurous life, but just be sorry if you're upsetting God in someway. That way, on the basis that there is no God, you have still enjoyed your life to the full.

On the issue of whether it being nature or nurture. I recently read an article which went on about how two, young male, twins went to be circumcised. One of the twins penis' was burnt off horrifically and the Doctors stated it may be best to construct it into a Vagina. The family went along with this and then brought up one of their sons as female, thinking they could change his mindset if they tried hard enough. Decades past and it was evident that the child wanted to be a boy. Doing male things. Being attracted to females etc. Anyway, at the end of this he committed suicide because he felt estranged. A couple of years later, his brother did the same, because of the stress.

Point - Chemicals in our body and moreso in our development can do amazing things. They can make us have both sex organs. They can trap us into the body of a sex that we aren't mentally. We can accept all this. And Homosexuality is the same. Chemical imbalances in the Brain cause the Brain, and in some case body, to become more female than male. I don't comprehend how people can look at a Gay guy who has a feminine, sleek body and face structure and say he wasn't born that way.

On a different note - yes, Fags can live a lie and pretend to be straight. Should we have to? No. Not really. In the long run it's more damaging.

'its just a conversion to a different belief'

And going on that basis Homosexuality shouldn't even be around. Moreso in England around the Victorian ages when having wet dreams was a sin. All cultures and societies throughout their time have hated Queerdom, yet it still remains. Surely if it was a choice, society would have already stamped it out?

Hmmmm. Peronally, in that situation I wouldn't accept that. God loves all equally, anyone who says differently is a biggot.

I fail to see how they could enforce that? Did they do routine bedroom raids? :p Religion makes people do very weird things. But we couldn't exist without religion. Personally, I would rather live in a world with religion, rather than one without it.

Alcar...

I think it was the majority of society who believed in Religion at the time. My media tutor has a book that states all the apparatus they would use to combat sexual urges.

And in the case of wet dreams, they would die a piece of string to the penis, and attach that to a bucket of ice-cold water. So when the man would get an erection, it would pull the string and cause the water to splash down upon him. Halting his izzy-whizzy-let's-get-busyness in its tracks.

Ok I won't dwell over that opinion of mine anymore. It doesn't bother me anymore. Now back to topic, religion what is religion? In the eyes of God religion is pretty much meaningless. God doesn't care wether or not you go to church or you are a Baptist or Jew or Christian or Catholic.

God cares more about your heart and not religious status.

Think hot and cold. If you have a cold heart there will be a point inwhich God will harden your heart. If its hot it means you are yerning for Gods will to be done through you.

For you non believers out there when you say "God never does anything for me, your right. God won't do anything for you if it is something that goes against him. Ya know the Almighty says "no" too at times.

I don't hate homosexuals but I do believe they need to rethink their life. Ya know homosexuals are loved just as much as everyone else by Christians and by their fellow man. They are no better than streight people aswell. What I am trying to say here is when it comes down to God and our salvation we sit in the same boat. God does not think in the ways of man and that is what will surprise us in the life to come.

I really do believe that God won't judge us by our religion. If you're a good person, it doesn't matter what way you worship Him.

Ugh...I'm somewhat of a Mormon, and they seriously believe that the Mormon church is THE ONLY WAY to get to the highest place in heaven. Drives me crazy, which is why I seldom go there anymore.

-oddguy

The problem with saying that people who think god is against homosexuality are bigots is that in the bible it says in no uncertain terms that they are abominations. We all want god to be this perfect loving being but when you read the bible he kind of comes off as being malevolant. We have to decide whether or not a god who makes rules like this is worthy of our worship.

Looks like you made your choice. And I made mine. Whooo.

Not really. I'm not an atheist. I really want to believe that there is something better. If not for me at least for my children. I can't stand the thought of anything bad happening to my girls. It would kill me. I just have a hard time reconciling what god says with what I wish god would say. I'm a lot more conflicted on this than I've been letting on.

Sorry for misjudging you. I hope you find some answers.

-oddguy ;)

I was raised Roman Catholic (and went to a Catholic elementary school.) but am becoming more and more agnostic, so I was influenced at an early age that homosexuality is against my religion. I never really bought into that though, so I don't really give a crap if someone's gay.

I thought if you were a different Religion you were going to burn in fire-fury Hell water?

PA, that last post of yours made perfect sense up until the last paragraph. You say that you think homosexuals need to "rethink their life", but then you say that they are loved by Christians and their fellow man. So what exactly is your stance? Also, are you of the belief that homosexuality is a choice?

And I don't understand your last two sentences. Do you think God holds homosexuality against homosexuals?

OANST, the abomination of homosexuals and whatever, was a part of the Old Testament, when humanity was under the law. Humans are now, since Christ's final sacrifice, under grace. So things such as homosexuality (etc), are no longer looked down upon in the eyes of God.

I explained it better here: http://www.oddworldforums.net/showpo...0&postcount=54

Alcar...

I do despise it so, when individuals twist facts and infromation (or forget it) to try and prove a misguided point. Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thank you very much. Do kindly be honest and/or read the material before you discuss it*. Thank you.

Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.

For Jacob:
Please explain how the Bible is an incarnation of control. Thank you.

For Nate:
Romans 1:18-32
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
You're welcome.





*Same for the rest of ya!

Okay, did I misunderstand your previous post?

I thought you meant that all this was said in Genesis. As I now understand it, you're saying that Adam and Eve committed original sin in Genesis, which brought evil into the world as explained in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Is that correct?

'Please stop confusing love with lust. Thank you.'

Please show some proof that Homosexuals lust after each other and are incapable of loving each other. Thank you.

'Please explain how the Bible is an incarnation of control. Thank you.'

In the sense that the Monks that got a hold of the original Bible to translate it, thought "I know...this says this...and that says that...but if i put that near this and this near that then...A-HA!" and began adding parts themselves and/or rearranging parts to control society and mould it into something that they wanted it to be.

Waitwaitwait. . . are you saying homosexuals can't be in love with members of the same sex? I think you need to get your facts straight. Why do you think so many gay partners want to get married? Just to spite conservative straight white men?

EDIT: Jake beat me to the punch. Oh well.

*Gives Nate a prize.*

Correct. Genisis merely (to my knowledge) proclaims the entrance of sin. Other books devulge the exact nature of it.

NOTE: Time for Thanksgiving dinner. Must go!

Okay I understand you now. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I understand you.

As I've been trying to explain, the laws set down in the Old Testament have no control over us now. It is the New Testament which we draw things off. As I've stated twice before, we are under grace. Not the law. Meaning the laws set down on Homosexuality are absolutely moot. It is society and the Papacy that are misguiding people from this often overlooked fact.

I could just as easily say that Heterosexual lust is mistaken as love. You seem to be someone of a learned background, but all I can see here is an opinion drawn from the common societal beliefs (that Homosexuality is all about lust - simply because that is what is depicted on TV). Homosexuals can feel love for eachother, and I am rather upset that you would deny the existence of love between two people.

Oh, and the Bible is a means to control. It's just another book in history that has been used to rule many kingdoms / countries / etc. The very fact that there are laws in the Bible easily demonstrate control. Finally, the Bible is not a direct fax sent from God, it is an interpretation made by humans. It is therefore not exempt from human error.

Alcar...

Alcar, you're so damn awesome. It's great how you use your knowledge of religion as a means to help people! I'm sure that's what it was intended for in the first place!
Meet me behind Welcomes and Birthdays later. ;)

Hmm, for the people who think homosexuality is wrong or against your religion, do you think they should be denied marriage? This should be interesting...

I wouldn't mind if Homosexuals got married and such, but here's something interesting I found out. When gay couples were getting married against the law in San Fransisco, Tom Green(the polygamist) called his lawyer. If gay marriage is legalized, Tom Green is going to sue for polygamy to be recognized by law. Certain people think that if one alternative lifestyle is accpeted into society, that other lifestyles will have to be accepted as well.

An interesting situation.

-oddguy

I'm rather liberal on the subject of gay marriages. I think the law should recognise a civil union, but I'm not so sure about marriages (in which the Church is involved). It's rather iffy in my mind. But I'll make up my mind sooner or later :p

Alcar...

I think the whole "let's give them something separate but equal" is bullpoop. We all know how well that worked out with African-Americans. :rolleyes: It's ridiculous to not allow a couple to marry because they have matching genitalia. And what's wrong with their being married in a church, Alcar? Haven't you been saying this whole time that the Bible has nothing against homosexuals? Christians can be gay too, afterall.

Hmm... polygamists... Well, not giving them the right to marry more than one person won't stop them from being with more than one, so sure, why not give them their rights too. Who would it harm? Would it somehow give some make the marriage of some couple across the country or even down the street impure?

Marriage Protection Act... give me a break.

EDIT: Is gay marriage banned in any other countries?

Ambi, one reason I'm not decided upon it, is I haven't actually checked any Bible references about same sex marriage, or just marriage in itself. It would be foolish of me to open my mouth and say something without evidence. While my moral and ethical stance on it is that homosexual marriage should be allowed, I still need that precious irony that the bible holds over fundamentalists ;)

Although, I guess I worded what I wanted to say wrong. To clarify, I would be perfectly happy to attend and condone a marriage between people of the same sex. And as far as I know, some religions (or maybe just some rebel parishes :p) do actually marry same sex couples.

Oh, and yeah, gay marriage is banned over here in Australia. As well are different laws reguarding the age of consent. I mean, they're there primarily to prevent pregnancy, yet the legal age for homosexual men is 18. Heterosexuals it is 16. And Lesbians aren't even recognised.

Alcar...