But there would be less warning slapping around if we warned Forumers. We aren't trying to catch people red handed to get rid of them, we're only trying to eliminate the problem.

Cyber-Slig, kudos on your concern for the rules, but the ideas we're discussing are open to debate from anyone, so there's no real need to keep things private.

I agree with Maxy and Peter and all the mods on this. There's so much more spam now than there was last year; it has to be dealt with.

I don't mind the odd bit of spam, some of it can be quite funny. But it's an odd feeling being able to go into a forum and just seeing spam everywhere. It's annoying, and it's un-needed. (Such a spelling error :P)

I kinda read that as in the forums is here because of the love the forum admins and staff share about Oddworld. And that they don't want the forums to become ruined by mountains of spam. He just emphasizes about his and Abebabes passion, but he could of used any other staff member.

That made me giggle ^_^ All the mods'd look good in uniform.

I've noticed a few people using my name in vain which is a bit ridiculous as this is my first post in this thread. So I figured I would clear up where I stand on this issue. I do not support the Alcar bandwagon. I do not support the CB bandwagon. I'm not even sure how much I support my own bandwagon :p.

My only personal objection to the spam-crackdown was the shutting down of the spam thread. I've made my feelings on that known elsewhere so I won't get into that here. I haven't been given any warnings so I can't comment on Alcar's methods but all I will say is that when a rule has not been enforced it is not the best idea to jump in straight away with a Rudi Guiliani-style non-tolerance enforcement. Perhaps the mods should have given a polite reminder and then enforced the rules for all following post rather than those that had occurred before the reminder.


EDIT: I just visited the "Summer Movie Extavaganza! Huzzah" thread and want to complement Max on his mature and reasonable way of dealing with black-coolness-oriented spam there

No banning. Not even a threat. And because he did it so politely, people will listen.

Thanks Nate_dog. I admit (without being bothered to make sure) I probably used your name here after seeing your 'stance' in the Spam Thread thread, so I apologise for that. With the Summer Movie thread, I decided that no official action was required as that particular conversation had stemmed from the original topic in the way conversations do, yet clearly had no place there.

Perhaps you're right on our jumping straight into proper enforcement after our own lapse. We should have had a warm-up, but it doesn't really matter. No real damage has been done. The staff will certainly bear that in mind if we're ever in a similar situation.

EDIT: I misread you the first time. I'll remind you that no spamming was punished except for that which was posted after Alcar posted the reminder. Everything before will have been deleted, but the posters won't have been issued with warnings unless the mods were doing their job at the time.

Thank God! A resolution... the correct one! :rolleyes:

It takes a great man to admit their faults! :p

(For women it doesn't matter! :D )

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll then quote what you said earlier), but you wanted us to step into full rule enforcement without warning everyone about it.

It's a lose lose situation. You're going to get pissed off members either way. If you tell everyone you're enforcing the rules, they get upset. If you silently enforce the rules, people get upset and ask what the sudden crackdown is all about.
I can see it now.
"What? You decided to enforce the rules without warning us first? Unfair!"

-oddguy

I thought thats what you mean't by a "warm-up" slowly starting to enforce the rules as stated and if that didn't work THEN post a missive about enforcement.... no?

Oh no, we'd still post a warning to everyone. Like I said, we're not trying to catch people in the act, we want the rule-breaking to stop. If members read the freshly-posted rules and stop flaming, etc., we wouldn't have to hand any warnings out, which you must agree is better.

Spam, spam spam, bitch, bitch, bitch. Why do people even care about spam? You know how the vast majority of this canned spiced ham is created? Threads are started about it, which quickly degenerate into a contest to see who can make the other guy look like a bigger, more spam-happy dickhead. Grow up people. Spam is nothing if not a cheap and entertaining way to up your post count and piss people off. Stop rewarding people with responses and flame wars over who spams the most and it will go away.

I go away for a while and you all turn into total retards.

It's just a forum. Stop being twats.

"Respect other members, and their opinions.
Spamming is not tolerated.
Do not threaten the safety of the forums or server.
Do not discuss bans with others.
Do not post anything directed at single members."

1: respect is subjective.
2: the definition of "spam" is subjective, but I beleive the "dictionary" description of spam should be used to describe and identify it, rather than simply "whatever a mod deems useless".
3: I've already threatened and compromised the security of the forums' server several times in the past, yet I am still here, why is that?
4: Why should we not discuss bans with the others? This is a community, you can't just remove it's members and expect life to go on as if nothing happened. There is simply no way you can regulate or enforce that rule unless you start policing PM's, which is something the vBulletin architecture isn't designed to do.
5: How the hell are we supposed to address individual points in discussions then?

I don't see this enforcement as anything more than a limitation on the scope and possibilities of future discussion. And frankly Alcar as much as I am releived to see you taking a more active stance against your staff as well as the members, I don't fully trust your perceptions with so many very subjective and unclear areas.

I'm not going to use a forum which takes "rule enforcement" with the same seriousness as post-911 USA takes "war on terrorism".

1) Being subjective doesn't detract it from its actual meaning. Here, respect means just what it implies. Not what some twisted sociopath takes respect to mean.
2) We give the Moderators the power to deem a post not worthy of the forums. That's detracting from their abilities.
3) Actually, I added the hacking rule after you made those threats. It was because of you that this particular rule was instigated.
4) It's a rule older than my registeration date. When a member is banned, they are banned of just cause. If you have a problem with the banning, you can privately contact us, but the community discussion of such can cause more problems than it solves.
5) You can address single posts, just not anything that is so directed at one particular member that it digresses from the topic at hand.

Alcar...

4) You sure can discuss bans, just not on the public side of things.
5) I thought Alcar changed the rules. It should be that posts only relevent to one person should be PMed.

I don't have anything against the law enforcment. Just ease down on the warnings a little bit...

I will say no more for fear of a mod turning my account to dust with a push of a button.

Tsk, it's not against the rules to voice your opinions on the rules. :p

The thing is, warnings are how the rules are enforced. With no warnings, what would deter people from spamming or being nasty? Even with the warning system in place some people can't seem to help themselves.

Well apparantly, it's against the rules IF, the moderators decide that it's "spam" - the definition of which remains undisclosed for the convenience of this "anti-spam" campeign no doubt.

See what I mean?

Now the moderators can pretty much make up rules as they go along. They can "deem" something to be not worthy and warn warn warn. That's just asking for problems and frankly, I don't want to post in that kind of environment.

I'm going to leave this forum before Alcar bans me for posting something that a moderator deems "not worthy", or some such bullshit.

You better hope that I won't deem your server "not worthy", suckhard.

I don't think it's the "not worthy" rule you've just broken.

Anyway, I don't know what Alcar means. The definitions of this 'not worthy' status are difficult to define, yes, but most people are intelligent enough to realise when their posts detracts from the conversation, becomes personal, or has no relevence. If they're not, they get a warning and are pointed towards the rules. I don't get why everyone is acting as if warnings are the end of a member's life on the Forums. They're exactly what they're called.

Ehm...a warning is the end of someones life on the forums if they get 5......Noone want's to end up like brewmaster...by the way is he on a permanent ban?I think you will have noticed that spam has cut down but so has you're posts.theres only like what 30 new posts per day? You can't change peoples attitudes with the rules in the click of a finger.On my 2nd day after the rules I got 2 warnings in a row.If a forum goes incredibly off-topic that it cannot be saved DO NOT hand out a hand load of warnings and delete the posts expecting ti to live again...it is dead..resolved...boring....just close the thread and throw it in necrum or something.I think everyone has atleast 1 warning now.....Except the mods and probably oddguy does'nt but......As soon as one person makes a comment others can't resist answering it.Be it off-topic or not.And I don't think you are doing you're jobs correctly.I have reported some spam in my RPG but it is deleted ? No it is'nt.....

Sorry, that would be a fault on my part, I have failed in actually moderating my forum, I don't pay much attention to it as it's pretty dead, but until The Red Muse comes in, if anymore spam is posted and I don't pick up on it send me a PM and I'll burn the criminal with my firey mace. I shall now go find the spam and deem whether it needs destroying

And Away! *whips crack noise*

You are about to have your modship removed so, stfu plzkthx and stop being such a smelly erection.

This "I spam you ban" warning activation service was brought to you by "Idon givvafuc, Moscow".

Really now, don't go around thinking or trying to promote that we'll and deem anything we don't like unworthy. We don't make up rules as we go. Common sense is a constant state. To this date, I don't think I've ever seen a legitimate post or thread deleted because it was "unworthy". Stop worrying so much about what could happen. The moderators in charge are the ones selected by the forumers, and my guess is that it may have been for a reason. All of the current staff have been stellar members, and the moderators before us, and those before them.

Granted, there are many new members since the election a few years back. But if you feel one of us is incapable of good judgement when it comes to spam, simply say so. Put your word in with the current elections. Post about it. You sense of potentially unfair deletions needs to be more specific, if you want it to hold much merit. Find a place where someone's legitimate post was deleted. Find where a perfectly good thread was closed.

The spam thread itself has been replaced, and allowed, and the old one was getting much too long anyways. It sometimes helps to know what page one of your posts was on, or what the recent convorsation flow has been.

Sorry about that I have been feeling a bit upset all day. I don't know why, I'm just kinda... "down", at the moment.

Happens to me every so often. I just ... burst into tears for no reason once every month or so, then I feel better. I've got a friend here helping me through it, I should be back to normal in a little bit.

Again sorry for being an ass, just not my usual self. :)

I REALLY don't think codek will appreciate being banned straight after he apologised......Anyhow this is a battle between the mods and the members.....Do you wan't it to be one of the forums where noone but mods and admins post?Think about what the members wan't not just the mods.Right heres a list of people who have left.Funny thing is None of em' are mods

1.Smell
2.Smitz
3. BM is on a ban
4.Lucipher
5.I think codek pretty much despises the forum now.....

below are people who never post anymore since this ''enforcement''
1.Sligslinger
2.Sligster
3.DI

now you see? Do something....you have a chance...take it.....before you have 0 members who bother to post...

If they choose to leave, that is their choice. Obviously, they've realised they can no longer use this forum as an outlet for their teenage angst. In turn, it means they've realised that they've been breaking the rules. Furthermore, there is a fatal flaw in your argument. The people you've listed are those who break the rules.

Personally, I would rather a small-knit community of intelligent members, who are mature enough to recognise that the rules are there for a good reason. Most of the members complaining are only doing so because they're upset that they've been told off. Live with it.

Alcar...

Maybe so but they were liked people.Man there won't be a small knit community.It shall be 2/3 members and mods.Does'nt sound too fun.And I haven't seen SS break the rules.Nor has sligster.

You haven't seen them break the rules because their spam posts are deleted, meaning you can't see them. That is the reason I always quote the post that someone has broken the rules in, when sending them a warning. They may have been liked people, but the majority of them broke the rules. They chose to leave on their own account. They could not be bothered to conform to our rules. You cannot blame that on me.

Alcar...

First off, Smell left for unrelated reason.

The fact that you are using a respected member's name out of spite does actually sicken me.

Secondly, does it not stand to reason that the mods are mods for the very reason that they're not likely the break the rules? Not breaking the rules means no need for warnings.

How will a smaller number of members detract from the close knit feel? Personally, in GD at least, I have found that discussion on the whole has become richer, more intelligent and more satisfying, much like in the days when the Forums really were a close knit community.

Of course, we'll never regain that same nostalgic ideal, because as more and more people join OWF, our members become more and more widespread, incorporating a greater range of individuals, resulting in a variety. Incidentally, it is in catering for this variety that the rules exist.

Dude, in case you just came flying in from another world. Here on earth games are mostly played by teenagers... so its kinda normal a forum dedicated to a game attracts teenagers! OMG! WHAT LOGIC!
All the rule's make this place looks like it is some adult convo center with no fun at all. Hell I can have more fun at the nursing home!
You know the art of being a good moderator? Thats being able of judging every single post for spam or not. BUt since you obvious lack that capability you just choose to give everyone a warning as soon as they go one letter ofF topic. That way you don't have to hurt your brain to decide wether its spam or not.
Its the most idiotic way to run a forum, and youl know the results soon enough if you don't stop it.

Just because we have a majority of teenagers doesn't mean they can use the Oddworld Forums as an outlet for their angst.

And, how would you know how to run a forum? But don't bother answering that. You obviously haven't.

Alcar...

Alcar, I have alot of respect for you, but I would like to know why you thought the Enforcement was even needed? The forums seemed fine untill it was enforced.

Yes maybe she did leave for different reason.But if I'm correct she got a warning and is'nt it funny how she left just after the enforcement?And screw it Im just gonna agree with Fez.We don't even need the enforcement.Im an admin to a forum myself and it's easy.Noone has gotten any warnings and the site is fine...

It really began with the staff members not doing their job properly, myself included. As expected, spam grew, and people became accustomed to it. So that when we decided that it had definately reached too much, the general population were so used to it, that our sudden strictness in the rules was taken badly. Especially the newer members, who joined when we were lax. They are only known to the forums when it was very spam-plentiful.

Spam was abundant. Members constantly arguing was abundant. Members scaring off other members was abundant. We were loosing new members because of it. And the list continues.

I don't see why members are reluctant to post anything. I have only handed out warnings to that which is actually spam. And even then, I've been very considerate. There are a lot of posts now in existence that should be deleted, and the user warned. I've bent my own rules when it comes to warning and banning people. I've been very generous.

One thing to think about though, is why is it the same people who I actually end up warning / banning? (with the exception of a minute few). It's a bunch of confused of teenagers trying to make a difference, by going on a blind crusade. They want to change what has been in place for ages. And I will simply not allow the forums to die in the process.

If it means loosing members, then so be it. The only members I want on the Oddworld Forums, are those that are dedicated to promoting wholesome, and entertaining discussion. We will more than make up the lost numbers (even though the numbers are so small its laughable) in the pre-Stranger, Stranger, and post-Stranger periods. And those members will join the forums under our proper rules scheme. This is essentially what I am trying to do: Promote more Oddworld-ness, and alter the forums in time for the flood of members to arrive.

Alcar...

Heh... That post actually amused me...
The funny thing is that Havoc, actually is a mod. He knows how to run a forum.
Just go and look www.thecommunity.has.it
W have like 10 active members, but they are good people. We have fun on the community, without having to worry if it's spam or not. Havoc, gives warnings, yeah, he gave TBM several warnnings for spamming. Havoc is a good mod. We don't need a law enforcement. and he closes threads that becomes too old, to prevent further spamming. So how can you say he doesn't know how to run a forum. In this case i am sorry to say the your wrong.

See? Problems can also be solved in good ways. No one has ever complained over the rules on TC.

But he is not running a forum. He is running one forum, in which he handles no administrative tasks. I had originally said (but removed it), that forums of less than 1000 members don't count. Which is your case. The members you have on that forum are all friends, and know each other a lot better than I know you. The fact is, Havoc doesn't have any experience in running a forum as large as this. His verdict on my running of a forum is worth absolutely nothing but an opinion's sake. Because he has nothing to back it.

Once again, your forum is a small community. It is easier to manage. We get a daily range of anything from 200 to 300 + posts. The methods you use, would simply not be effective on our larger scale forums.

Alcar...

Alcar this was'nt needed.You could have just gave a reminder of the rules out.Not an enforcement which will get half of us banned or pissed and leave.I run a forum too and I can control it pretty well.Take a look.I close all aggressive threads.Its only 1 month old and we are doing great.I am the admin called plaguethirster.I do my job without warnings http://tlotb.proboards12.com/index.cgi

How many annoying spammers do you have to contend with? How many new members leave because other members are complete idiots towards them? How many new threads and posts do you have to moderate daily? How many members do you have that post regularly?

The answer to all of them is minimal. Your management strategies would not work on our scale forums. Just as our strategies would not work on other forums.

Alcar...

Well... You seem to know what your talking about alcar. But i think it could be managed in another way... Too many members leave. And yes i know you think that if they don't like it they can just leave. But would you do, if you where a member of a forum about the only thing you like, and then this law comes where you get a warning for evrything you do, and don'y unerstand why? Well... Sometimes my little brain, just can't figure out why a member got a warning, my brain always comes to the conclusion that it's just ridiculous

Yes but alcar it is but a new forum.This is 4 year I think.I can still get annoyed with the members.I once warned someone for a double post none of which were relevant. ''Hey I gotta try that'' ''WhO lIkeS IrOn MaiDEN?'' . Its annoying.So I can understand how you feel.But even I think I acted a bit harsh.I've cooled down much better now.I haven't warned a single person after that . And the forum already has 1000 posts and over 20 members after one month into its creation.

T-nex, there are many ways I could have managed it. I guess I chose the extremely blunt and sudden method. I can't say it didn't work, because it has, to a large extent. We're thinking of modifing the tallying system, and the basic gist I got of it, was that different offences are awarded a different warning "amount". So double posting might be worth 10% and chit-chat might be worth 20%. So that if you reach 100% you are banned or something. 50% you might be temporarily banned. I'd like any suggestions you have on that, as well as any suggestions concerning spam in the thread entitled: 'the definition of spam' :)

Cyber-Slig, it's good to know that you've been in the situation I have been in many times before. I honestly don't think I've been too harsh. Perhaps a little at the beginning, but I've progressed slowly down to a less-agro approach. I've been very lenient with a lot of things. I've given reminders instead of warnings. I've reduced banning times. I've let what some might call spam pass through.

Everyone seems to have the notion that I'm destroying the forums by forcing people to leave. I really find that quite hurtful, as I've always protested for the better of the forums. I've said time and time again that I want them to grow. But I don't want them to grow into a pile of rubbish.

Alcar...

Well the forum is fine in the first place.Just as the members suggested let our well-loved members back in and hand out more reminders.I thought I was banned for a week a few minutes ago and saw it was a reminder.I doubt I'll do it so problem solved.I think that is much better than a warning.If you do that noone will mind the rule enforcement.