Liar liar pants on fire. Thats a bad website. Apologetic Press? More like Daily Deception. Don't make me laugh. The webmaster needs to invest in a 2-pack of fleet enemas, this "site" (read abomination) has "anal retentive" illuminated as the fist phrase on every page. Facts of evolution anything less than factual? Ever read about the spotted moths? They adapted during the industrial revolution to blend in with the soot-covered trees. And when England cleaned up its act? They were bird food. Don't believe me? With all your obvious knowledge, you're clearly attending summer school, so you can ask your remedial history teacher tommorow during class.

This response brought to you in patented sublimino-text!

First of all, Khanzumer, at the risk of offending, I think you're missing the full S C O P E of the evolutionary argument. No matter what your definition of what it is to be a "true Christian", you must agree that there is some level of interpretation to the bible no matter how literally it is taken. Otherwise there would be no priests or bible discussions- bilblical study is more than just blind faith and M O N K E Y work. The books of Genesis and Revelations, specifically, leave quite a bit of information unsaid or said in a mysterious manner, making the analyzation of them, after all these years of translation and interpretation especially, a real T R I A L. You say that the Christian literalist creation story cannot include evolution, but I would suggest you take a second L O O K with this in mind. Where exactly does I T state exactly how God created life, or that the six days of his labors were days by human definition? A lot of the specifics are left U P to the follower's interpretation, and, at this point where direct information ends, some mixing of data from both holy and scientific scources can be helpful in filling in the holes we N O W find ourselves facing.

But, of course, take this or L E A V E it, it's up to you. Simply my opinions, no need to get hot around the collar and P I N K faced about anything. None of us in this argument are A L O N E in our beliefs here.

I believe in evolution.

I think 'The Spirit' is inside you; your inner self, the "Real" you. Your conscience. I think you have to discover your Spirit, you ain't born with one.
I think the Soul is nearly the same as your Spirit. The Soul is yourself. It what makes you, you. The spirit and the soul tell you what to do and make you do it.

They are just my opinions.

What I said came from the bible, it's not an opinion so it's not heresy because it's not an opinion. Or should I give you scriptures so I can make you look like an even more idiot than you do now. :D

Yes, I would explain but people would cry about it.

Well, that's you. That's all I have to say.

1. It is opinion.

2. Oh yeah, post extracts from the Bible to prove that the Bible isn't opinion. That'll work.

Stop it, pinky, you're scripture is scaring me!

1. No it's not. What should you know you believe in physics.

2. Then why are you crying? Better than your physics garbage.

Wow, I can be non-chalant also.

Ding ding! End of round one, and they're still all standing, folks! In all my time as a fight commentator, never have I seen so many punches pulled, feelings spared and opinions respectfully with-held. All in all, NOT one for the record books!

But there are the seeds for a very interesting debate here. Both sides seem confident but well-spoken, and everyone's concern is an open mind. Here's what I suggest- I'll start a thread here, entitled "No holds barred evolution slug-fest", and anybody who isn't afraid to learn something new can come on in and argue their opinions. Hold nothing back, keep no argument in reserve, and don't be suprised if your feelings get hurt! It's Baboons vs Baptists, Probisci vs Protestants, Orangotangs vs Orthodoxes, as all Hell breaks loose and the DNA starts a fly'n! Don't miss the Darwinian Fury of Evolution, today on Pay-per-view!!!

Oh it is when Pinky gets involed.

'Just look at our evidence.'
'No. Your stupid! Bwahahahahaha!'

Ok, I know that this topic has been around for a decent time now but I just wana put in my two cents.

I am a Christian and I do belive in evolution. I love god and I always try to follow his word but I don't think that you have to follow the bible exactly. The bible is was mainly made to record the historical teachings of Jesus and give us an example to follow. Now Im not perfect but I do try to follow it as best I can and I belive that if everyone did the world would be a much nicer place. As for evolution, they say that god works in mysterious ways and I belive this is one of them. When god created earth he created the animals before us, then it says he created us last. So why not take an animal that already exists and just evolutionize it really quickly? Just because I belive in evolution and other theorys that are supposedly against the belif of a Christian dosn't mean that Im a hypacrit. If evolution never happened then why do we have a tailbone? I don't wanna spark any flames but thats what I feel.

Wow, nice job imitating yourself Gluk! *laughs harder*

Maybe the expressing of personal beliefs isn't a game, true, but this topic has, pardon the phrase, evolved into something much different. But, you are correct, I should contribute something.

My personal feelings on the subject are kind of mixed. On one hand, I've learned a lot about darwinian evolution, and it seems to make sense and have evidence for it. On the other hand, though, life has taught me that the things that make the most sense often aren't how it works at all. I don't know. Right now, I think evolution is indeed the best supported and most likely candidate we have, and therefore should approach it with a level of suspended disbelief in the hopes of advancing our knowledge about it. If a better argument comes along, I'm willing to listen, but until then I'll keep looking into this one.

The thing is, though, I get really tired of people seeing DISproof of evolution as proof of creation theory. It isn't that black and white, especially considering the evidence being put forth. I pretty much figure that (and please don't take offense at this, it's just my opinion) biblical literalists are living in a fool's paradise. To say that the exact wording of the bible sitting on their bookshelf today, after millenia of translations and political manipulations, is the same as the original is just ignorance, in it's purest sense. You are ignoring the fact that it is not the same as the original text, and saying that it is. You are refusing to accept that things have changed. That's what gets me, people thinking that things don't change over time, that the universe and everything in it is static, which is also their argument against evolution. Whether or not it happens exactly as Darwin said it did is irrelivant- to say things don't change is to stand defiantly against every single lesson life teaches us, with everything we do. It's the complete and total ignorance, because you're ignoring everything you're being taught.
Now, I'm not saying there might not be some truth to the creation theory put forth in the bible. For all I know, there very well could be some omniscient force that created us and everything around us. It seems very convenient and suspect, but I can't disprove it. But to say that this force created everything with a certain process and not another, WHEN EVEN YOUR OWN BOOK, THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE TO REFER TO, DOESN'T EVEN MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THAT PROCESS, just seems silly to me.

So, in short, I am an evolutionist presently, but try to keep an open mind. If someone were to make an argument for biblical creation that they could support with more than one resource, so not just by disproving evolution or quoting the same scripture I'm suspicious of, then I would be happy to listen. If those are your only arguments, though, then I've heard it all before.

You are not a Christian if you do not accept a literal and not allegorical interpretation of the bible. CAN YOU DIG IT, SUCKA!!! If you believe otherwise you are not only a jive turkey you are a showpopotamus and a jive wombat. Everything is statikk...to me(bum bum ba ba ba ba ba ba bum, rest of Bohemian Rhapsody here.)

I don't understand. Surely if people don't agree with these articles, then they are the people you would most need to talk to, right? I mean, what would be the point in trying to persuade someone of something they already believe in...?

Rachel, Ian was only trying to lighten the mood. No need to blow up at him.

If you have a table in your house, the chance is someone made it directly or indirectly for you. It did not made itself, or it was not made by a chance. Same rule applies for your car, your house, your clothes, your medicine, and everything else in your home or at your work.

The common sense says that there is a worker behind every work, there is a maker for everything made. Nothing is made by itself or by a chance. Sometimes things are complicated enough to take many steps and perhaps many people to work in until they reach you. Actually, it depends on two factors. First, how complicated this job is, and second, how much experience and intelligence the maker has. For example, you can find someone who is intelligent enough to finish a job by himself that is usually required many people to finish.

There is nothing in this universe that would not submit to this simple rule, everything is made by someone. For example, you will not believe someone who tells you that the complicated computer you are using now is made by a chance or by the nature! It will never happen. If we bring big pieces of some metals, chemicals, and leave them together, for even billions of year, are there a chance that they will react together in a very specific ways to create very specific memory chips, sounds, pictures that governed by hundreds of scientific complicated equations and laws? What is the chance that they create very specific voltage, watts, bps, dimension, cache, network connection, modem speed, just to mention a few? Moreover, I have not mentioned the details of monitors, disk drives, or other very complicated parts! Also, I have not mentioned thousands of very complicated mathematical equations that work behind the seen. Examining the latest Y2K bug, it costs hundreds of billion of dollars just to fix the date. The fear of the consequences of Y2K was felt in every business. Any single computer has tens of thousands of line coding behind the seen. Sometimes, a single line of errors could disable your computer.


Your computer will not be fixed even if it left alone for million of years. Nature will not fix it, and for sure it will not be fixed by a chance. The only way to correct your computer is to get a computer specialist to fix it. Now, who would believe, even for a second, that this computer could be created by a chance or by the nature? Few centuries ago, some people could believe this proclamation. But, today, after we discovered how compilcated everything in this universe, it is hard to beleive. The U.S spent billions after billions of dollars for over half a century, in research in Space. You ask any scientist, how much we know after all these years. The answer is very little. They will tell you how complicated the universe is, and how it is governed by millions of complicated laws that control everything in the universe. If you ask scientist about the smallest plant or animal, they will tell you how the system in each is fully equipped with wonders to keep each functioning smoothly. Can you tell me in the age of science and technology that all these come to existence by a chance or by nature? It will be a joke. Logically, it is not acceptable. In conclusion, we go back to the same simple rule in life, "for everything made there is a maker" Thanks to science. It helps us to get back to common sense.

Going Pinky, eyeh...? You never said in your post if you were talking about god, or not. Well I assume you were saying that evolution couldn't have happened, because there has to be a maker for everything, so it couldn't have had just happened. So you believe in creation? If so, I can ask you the same question I've asked from Pinky many times: If there is a worker behind every work and a maker for everything made, then who made god?

Exactly, and just think about how many monkeys have been tortured in their astronaut exams...

Nothing got tortured. Thats a common misconception. The Monkey's went up into space and when they came back down they were highly advanced and had the intelligence of Einstein. They are now trying to claim the world, infact, Bush is one of them.

Yeah, right...

lol! :D But hey... intelligence of Einstein...Bush?

Yes, your right. Although, he was IMMENSLY clever...until...*Dark, evil, echoey voice* The Pretzel came...

Hmmm, suddenly had a vision of a Pokémon fight.

Gary: "Gooooo Mini-Bush!! Ha-Ha Ash, with my Mini-Bush i can do some serious (Yet IMMENSLY stupid) damage to any of your Pokémon!!"

*Ash takes out Pokédex.*

Pokédex: "Mini-Bush. The evolved version of 'Two-Short-Planks'. This little, tiny, annoying little shit has immense power yet also immense stupidity. Look out for his úber move 'Nuke-anything-that-begins-with-'AFGHAN'."

*Ash puts Pokédex back*

Ash: "Hmmm, this calls for some serious action. Gooooooooooooooooooo Pretzel King!!"

Pretzel King: "Pret-Pret-Preeeet!!"

Mini-Bush: *To be said in a Psyduck like way* "Mini-Booosh(!)"

Gary: "Oh no!! Mini-Bush...quickly, come back!!"

*Mini-Bush runs around in circles clutching his head stupidly.*

Ash: "QUICK PRETZEL KING...DO 'IDIOTS-CHOKE-ON-THIS'!!"

*Pretzel King breaks up into tiny crumbs and then fly's quickly towards Mini-Bush, entering his mouth and clogging up his throat...killing him...forever.*

Ash: "Yey, well done Pretzel King!! Pretzel King?"

(Unfortunatly Pretzel King also gets digested. Bless.)

*Shakes head from side to side*

Whoa, weird vision.

That was really funny, Chris. :D Too bad that wasn't how it went...

So before he ate the pretzel of doom he was as smart as a chimp? Yeah right...

No, really he was. But unfortunatly his mouth was connected to his arse for some unknown reason.

If Bush really was a monkey, though, then that would mean he would have thumbs. However, if you look closely, you will notice that our president has a hansome pair of lobster claws in the place of normal human hands. Take a look at the next state of the union address- if a member of the senate happens to enrage him, he will waste no time in mauling the pitiful whelp with his razor-sharp poison tipped pinchers. It's kind of cool.
And leave the pretzel alone! That damned pretzel did nothing wrong, it was all in self defense! See what you do if you're suddenly dried, roasted, coated in mustard powder and jammed uncerimoniously down a US president's gullet! You would struggle, that's what you'd do, little pretzel doubting elves! Struggle! STRUGGLE! ELVES!

This is an incredibly silly argument. Not everything has a maker. Go outside and touch a tree. Does that have a maker? No. Pick up a stone. Does that have a maker? No. Neither does the Universe.

Of course, you could say that these things do have a maker, that God was their maker, but in doing so you are admitting that your entire argument for proving God's existence depends on the assumption that he exists anyway.

Your argument: Everything has a maker. Tables are made by Carpenters, Computers are made by computer-makery people, plants and animals are made by God. By this logic, the Universe must have a maker as well. Let us call this maker God.

My return: Not everything has a maker. Tables and computers do, but plants and animals don't. Therefore the Universe does not have to either.

See? Your argument is dependent on the assumption that you are correct. If we remove that assumption and examine your argument analytically, it falls apart...

Sorry I've been gone. This topic has grown a lot since I've been gone. I will try to get caught up and reply to some of the comments about my posts.

I do not have an intense fear of homosexuals GlukSchmuck. I just think that homosexuality is not a good lifestyle. My opinion, I'm not trying to change anyones.

That's still homophobia. Would you care to describe why you don't think it's a good lifestyle?

My reasons are my own and sort of personal. Enough said. Period. I don't want to accidently say something really bad. The last thing I need is someone getting mad at me since most people think it is an okay lifstyle.

Why are you picking on me Gluk Schmuck? I'm not forcing you to think the same way I do.

I'm not. I'm just curious.

That's okay. I just am used to getting a hard time for some of my beliefs. I know what I believe and why but when people question me it is hard to give an answer since I have to worry about whether or not it will piss someone off. I don't like getting people mad at me. In today's society it is hard to keep to my morals and when people mock them it dosn't make it any easier. I hope you understand.