But why in-game? I look at Oddysee as a piece of art. New n Tasty could be the same way, but the advertisements plainly devalue that art. You don't see a handful of half-page ads printed in great novels, and you don't hear "try the new breakfast sandwich at Subway" in classic songs. I would almost be alright with it if the game took place in our world, but it doesn't. When I first saw these, I thought it HAD to be a Sony move to promote other PS4 indies, because I figured Lorne would never let that happen to his baby.

It's just kind of shocking that JAW treated this game with such love and respect for the original, but actually decided to throw product placement in to make some extra cash. Unless you did that completely pro-bono (which I, for some reason, doubt). There's no excuse. I feel disrespected as a fan.

Call it an overreaction, but it isn't. Thinking "eh, I don't like it, but it's not THAT bad, stop complaining" is the kind of mentality that allows for this trend to continue and to grow.

It's not okay, and I dearly hope you guys don't put any in future releases of New n Tasty. I'm a loyal customer and fan, and I would appreciate it if you respected that, and not taint our most beloved games with that crap.

I sincerely hope you understand my being upset.

Thing is, the difference between this and your examples is that these are really minor background images that don't interrupt the game, and the fact that they're in secret areas only (I think). Adverts in the middle of a song or a novel is a completely different story.

I don't think I feel as strongly about it as some people do on here, but I'm definitely further toward the "against" side with regards to it. The idea is really great, helping out others and all that but I'm not sure about the execution. Like other people have said, a preview movie on the main menu or in the "Extras" category would have probably been more helpful.

I do have to admit they absolutely destroyed my immersion and I had to stop and look like "What the fuck was that?" Even after I knew my eyes weren't playing tricks on me, I still didn't even know what it was all about until I read it on here, so it is kinda lucky I regularly attend this forum. Otherwise it would have just been some random human face that looks totally out of place with no justification. Now it is the same thing with justification. But I'm not sure I agree with it.

Imagine if there was an advert for Sharknado in the background halfway through Pulp Fiction?

Exactly. The only product placement in movies like this (like when Jules and Vince talk about McDonalds and Burger King) was to add to the familiarity of the dialogue. And these places ACTUALLY EXIST within the setting.

I think the ads in NnT would bother me more and more as time goes on and as the advertised games lose their relevancy.

For lack of exact parallels, I used those examples. Ok, I've got one.

What if one of the characters in Star Wars or Lord of the Rings were at a bar/tavern and one of them was drinking from labeled Budweiser pint. Not only doesn't this make any sense within either of the universes, it's just greediness that knocks the entire piece down a peg.

Just so you know, we didn't get a dime for these cross-promotion agreements. It was done out of respect and support for indie developers we know.

Done so poorly, no one even knows what you're promoting, you might add.

Also, Sobe.

Sobe.

So

be

.

I still think it's a poor decision to promote those IN the actual game. It does make me feel a bit better that you aren't profiting on this bad decision, but that doesn't make in-game ads any less awful.

I love you guys, but honestly, if you want to help other indies out, PLEASE just put trailers and/or demos in part of the menu in future releases of NnT. I imagine the majority of the players are more likely to look though the whole menu than get to these secret areas anyway.

You spread more awareness for other indie titles, and it doesn't interfere with the story. Everyone wins! :fuzsmile:

I like it when games let you play a demo of another game whether through secret button combinations on the main screen or through a menu easily accessible. It's always a treat.

That's too bad since it probably has cost you some sales thanks to how blown out of proportion this issue has become. Many on IGN going on a cry baby rant of "OMG ADS IN GAME NEVER BUYING THIS WORST THING EVER TRYING TO TAKE OVER MY MIND ARGHH".

I don't really see them as ads, more like little easter eggs that reference another game. Tons of games do this. The only reason this comes across as an 'ad' is because it's displayed among other in-game ads.

oh boy.. :dodgy: semantics.

The point is that it would make everyone happy if they were just in the menu, and more people would likely see the promotions.

No, you get a list of similar books from the publisher at the back. And albums frequently credit artists who inspired them in the liner notes, or what snacks kept them going.

They did. Are they excused?

I feel indifferent as a fan.

"Have an opinion, but you're wrong if you do".

Grow!? Oh no! Because right now, indie games being promoted for free is absolutely the worst form of product placement we've seen in a video game. Who knows where it could go from here

We've already seen how bad things can get, in the triple-A tiers, with money changing hands. OWI are demonstrating restraint by keeping the ads benign, unintrusive and charitable. They're not showing indies how to be worse, they're showing the big guys how to be better.

Because you're an overly-entitled hipster who defines their self-image by the enjoyment of a video game too stubbornly to appreciate that it was made by talented human beings with goals and motives of their own?

>Implying there's no product placement in movies

And for those lamenting this as a failure of Oddworld's anti-corporate philosophy, it's actually quite the opposite. In one of his interviews, Lorne went on at length about how "trust is the new currency". He believes people are starting to see through the smog of ads that surrounds them, and assign more value to a passing recommendation from a friend than they do to ad placements that cost millions of dollars. It's a good direction for the world to be going, and this is his way of helping to usher in that new, post-internet mindset.

"We don't have loads of money, or loads of power. But we make this thing you like, you like us, and these are the things we like. You might like them too."

Just for the record, I do still think the ads break immersion, and would rather they were just in the menus. But it's reeaally not something I'm going to be losing sleep over.

Absolutely not. I'm implying the product placement featured in N'n'T is for, unfortunately, inferior products, and thus damages the integrity of the game and immersion in the world. That's why my analogy included an extremely below par indie movie hypothetically being advertised in one of the most successful indie movies of all time. Like someone said these "easter eggs" will be dead and mean nothing as soon as 5 years time.

Before anyone thinks I'm being a cunt about helping indies out, I'd like to refer back to my original post. I am all for JAW helping out other indies, the idea is great, but I think the execution was poor.

Oh, so what you're saying is, that they DON'T advertise IN the actual story or song? Rather the beginning or end of the piece, before or after the story actually takes place? Or on the packaging? The main menu promotions (which others have suggested and I've stated I'm completely fine with) are the equivalent of those examples. Not IN-GAME advertisements.

I sure am glad you changed the period at the end of that sentence to a comma, trying to make it seem like those two ideas were directly connected. Good word twisting, buddy. ;)

So let me get this straight, I should stop complaining because they're the lesser offenders? You obviously don't like product placement in games, so why are you defending it at all? "It's okay, because it's not as bad"

Get over yourself. I don't think you read my posts, because I love JAW and OWI's work, and there's no way I won't be purchasing New n Tasty. It's nice to know you can't engage in an argument without personal attack.

Okay, we're not on 4chan, friend. You can stop.
Is there product placement for real-world items in sci-fi or fantasy movies set on other worlds? No. Like I said, in movies and stories set in the REAL WORLD, some product placement actually adds to the familiarity of the dialogue/situations (which I already stated an example of, from Pulp Fiction)

In this case, and in the cases you're most likely referring to, it adds NOTHING to the story or the scene. The main character's can of Diet Pepsi, label perfectly facing the camera, doesn't change anything. It's a promotion and NOTHING more. Hopefully you can understand the difference.

Like I said before (and I'll say it again, just for you) this could be achieved through promotions in the MAIN MENU. The average player probably has more chance of visiting the "Extras" section of the main menu than the secret areas. Probably more often, too.

So, you AGREE with me, and you're still arguing and throwing personal attacks my way? Boy, oh boy.

Next time, try to make points that support in-game ads being more effective than options others have posted several times. And you could also attempt arguing your point civilly.

And I'd appreciate it if I didn't, so I guess we're even!

Dude, I literally gave you a blow-by-blow breakdown of your post. You can hardly accuse me of glossing over the details.

I think they work better when people don't take the debates too seriously, but you're welcome to disagree.

Please tell me more about how I'd like to be viewed. I do have trouble working these things out.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"
- Anon

Seriously, though; only one gosh-darned line in that post was a direct attack on you, and that was only because you were making out that one of OWI/JAW's management decisions was a personal affront to you in particular. I don't rove around the boards looking for people to pick on, but you were keen to be a victim, so I stepped in.

The argument is solid - you're allowing your emotional investment to take precedence over the spirit of the franchise. The insults are just to add flair

And just FYI, someone who tries to hide their arguments in PMs can't really throw stones on the whole "strength of conviction" front.
_

So you don't like advertising intruding during the story, breaking narrative momentum, or compromising the integrity of the atmosphere? Good thing it's just the secret areas, then - bonus material. Just like the liner notes.

What you said: "Unless you did that completely pro-bono (which I, for some reason, doubt). There's no excuse."
What I posted: "Unless you did that completely pro-bono, there's no excuse."

I removed some parentheses (which was mainly to make you look like less of a jerk). If you consider that some kind of shameful perversion of your logic, I'd advise you to, y'know, actually say what you'd like to be seen saying. Buddy.

Also, you appear to be arguing that there's not supposed to be any logical connection between the sentences in your post. Should I take it that this is some kind of avant-garde poetry that only superficially appears to be a complaint about ads in a video game?

Yes and no. I'm indifferent towards product placement as a concept, so long as it doesn't have any tangibly negative impact on the piece of media in question. In this case, yes, I do believe we can just forgive and forget; not because of the relative magnitude of the transgression (the ads aren't as bad), but because of the absolute (the ads aren't very bad, full stop).

You claim that we shouldn't ignore small-time sinners just because others sin more, and there's some truth to that, but are you really saying that there's nothing too minor to be worried about? Does every speck of dust on your floor have you reaching for the broom?

But all this is besides the point - what I was actually saying (that you so neatly ignored) was that your argument against letting the ads slide - "it allows for this trend to grow" - is broken. Besides the generally spurious nature of "slippery slope" arguments, New 'n' Tasty can't be accused of turning video games into a cashgrab, because so many games are already cashgrabs - to a far, far greater degree. That bridge has been well and truly crossed, and nothing OWI do will make a blind bit of difference.

... For the worse, that is. The other point you glossed over was that NnT is comparable in budget to mid-range AA games, and OWI/JAW are demonstrating how you can use adspace for the power of good. It's a little naïve, but hey, wide-eyed idealism is what Oddworld's all about.

The expression "get over yourself" is a popular phrase, used to suggest that someone has an inflated sense of self-worth, authority and expertise. It is often used in response to someone claiming that their views and opinions should be considered over those of people who actually work in the respective area.

It has just been said by the member who brought you such quotes as:

"There's no excuse. I feel disrespected as a fan."
"I figured Lorne would never let that happen to his baby."
"Call it an overreaction, but it isn't."
"I'm a loyal customer and fan, and I would appreciate it if you respected that."

Hey, hey, hey. I never for a second suggested you didn't like New 'n' Tasty. Even my little character analysis there recognised that Oddworld clearly means a hell of a lot to you, so I don't really know where you're getting that accusation from.

But you need to understand that appreciating a work of art means you need to view it as something that was built by people, and acknowledge the decisions of those people, and that the work only exists because they made those decisions as best they could. You don't have to agree with all the choices they made, but (with the possible exception of Leonardo Da Vinci painting The Last Supper onto dry plaster), you need to accept that their choices aren't objectively worse than the ones you would make. After all, who's to say that your favourite movie would have been better if you were the one directing it? Even if you liked it more, would other people?

Oddworld was not made to appeal to you alone, and it does not exist to give you something to identify yourself with. The reason you act so hurt when JAW does something you disagree with isn't because you just like Oddworld so very much - I like Oddworld as much as anyone, I don't like the ads, but I'm cool with them being there - it's because you've allowed this piece of media to become a fantasised ideal, something to live by, and when something changes, you feel like that part of you is being disputed, or stomped on, or torn away.

Anyone would be hurt in that position, but it's a position you chose to get into. It's not healthy, and as offended you'll inevitably feel, reading that stuff I just wrote, I'd recommend you let yourself cool off, come back to it, and look at it again with an open mind. It's really not in anyone's interests for you to get so torn up about this.

Even the guys at JAW who didn't agree with the ads let it go, because they'd rather just make cool games.

I do find it quite entertaining that you haven't actually played the game yet, though. Apparently you're ready to assess the impact of the ads beforehand. Confidence!

As I just said, it was actually you who brought personal stakes into this thing, with the whole "I am offended as a fan" schtick.

>Implying I use 4chan

It's a testament to just how gratingly you make your points, isn't it?

And you tried to patronise me by restating the point we agree on, even though you'd already read me make the same point myself! Aren't we quite the pair.

I suspect that JAW's logic was something along the lines of "the extra work putting these devs in the game itself shows how much we like them and makes the recommendation more meaningful", but you'd really have to ask them. I'm not here to defend the decision they made, simply their right to make that decision, and their right not to change it just because some people got upset.

Promise to argue your points without that holier-than-thou "I'm a fan and the devs have personally slighted me" tack, and you've got yourself a deal.
_

I understand your fears, but ultimately we can't really pass judgement on how popular or respected these games are going to be. Sharknado is widely derided, but some of these titles could end up indie darlings for all we know.

Speaking of which, how have these Friends of Oddworld been doing in the polls? Are they leaning more towards the Pulp Fiction or the Sharknado end of the spectrum?

To be fair, in 5 years' time everyone will be using a new console anyway. Any version released for the PS5/XBox Pi etc. will probably have new ads, or no ads at all. We don't even know if there's going to be ads in the PC version.

On my phone, so I won't bother with quotes:

1. Breaking down one of my posts, seemingly ignoring the points that myself and other have made, is not evidence of you reading "each post".

2. If you can't understand the difference between something being part of the actual story, or art piece, and something being in "the back of the book" or "in the liner notes", there's no point trying to argue with you about it.

3. A personal affront to me in particular? It's a bit disrepectful to all the fans, and I happen to be one of them, which is why I said "as a fan". It frightens me how much you trivialize qualifiers like that, and the significance in difference between a two distinctly functional punctuation marks. By switching them, you transformed my sentence into an "if, then" statement. It also amuses me that you consider "personal stakes" and childish name calling somehow the same.

4. The product placement does have a tangible negative impact on the game. Several reviewers commented negatively on that aspect. There's really no arguing that. And the idea that more people putting product placement into their games isn't adding to the problem because it's already all around is ludicrous.

5. I haven't ever said that JAW didn't have the right to freely make their game how they see fit. Also, acknowledging the creators' decisions does not mean that you must agree with them.

6. I'm quite clearly not hiding anything about my argument, as the PM I sent you as it basically restates most of my points from my previous post. I was merely trying to avoid restating the point in the thread, as the PM shifted focus toward the nature of our argument rather than our stances themselves.

7. I think it's safe to say that most of us here identify ourselves with Oddworld at least a little in some way, and I think you'll find great works of art have that affect on people. You own Oddworld merchandise, and have over 9,000 posts on a forum dedicated to a series that was more or less dead for nearly a decade, so yes, even you identify yourself as an Oddworld fan.

Basically, your entire argument is that "JAW has the right to make this game how they want to" -- a point I never once disagreed with. If that's a testiment to anything, it's your lack of ability to take things at face value. Disagreeing with their decision and claiming that they have no right to make that decision are two completely different things, but your difficulty to recognize nuanced differences like that seems to be a common theme in this argument.

I'm done arguing now. You would rather the ads be in the main menu. I would rather the ads be in the main menu.

Note the "seemingly".

If you're so concerned that I'm missing some important factor, then you might just, say, point that thing out, rather than lamenting over it and decrying me as ignorant.

If you can't understand the difference between something being part of the flow of a work, and something tacked onto the side as an appendix, then ditto.

I'm a fan, and I don't feel disrespected. I'm grateful to have you campaigning on my behalf, though. As opposed to, you know, arguing your own views and opinions, which is what most people would assume.

Ambiguous statements with unfortunate implications are my fault, apparently. If I'd responded with more than a five-word quip, I might even feel guilty.
You also claim to be "frightened" by my editing style, which is probably the best thing I've heard today.

You were acting like JAW were personally offending you. I decided to personally offend you. See, the same!

I'm also going to ask why you've bothered numbering these things, since half of them are replying to multiple parts of my post. It's genuinely odd.

"Negative impact" is a matter of personal taste.

Almost as ludicrous as suggesting that a small instance of a problem is going to inspire greater instances when those greater instances are already present and far more visible! And you're still ignoring the whole "positive example" thing.

Also, we've established that I'm indifferent to the principle of product placement, so any argument that characterises it as an inherent "problem" isn't going to hold water with me.

No, you've just stated that all of your suggestions are objectively superior to what they settled with. Because that's completely different.

Gee, where have I heard that second bit before... I'm glad we're finding common ground, but you might want to do it when you're not trying to disagree with me.

You didn't want to repeat yourself in the thread... so you decided to repeat yourself in a PM instead? That's some fun logic you've got there, buddy.

I do indeed. I've also managed to navigate the associated pitfalls, and I encourage you to do the same.
I know what Oddworld represents to me, and can keep that distinct from what it should try to be.
I know how I interpret its various themes, but I also remember that it was dreamed up by a man I barely know, and we won't always agree.
I enjoy the time I spend with the franchise, but I don't obsess over how I liked it most - it needs to try different things to grow and improve, and whether I like those things or not, I shouldn't write them off as failures.
But most importantly, I'm confident that Oddworld is something worth my time, but I accept that it's not mutual. Nothing JAW or OWI do will ever offend, decieve, mislead or insult me, because they have no idea who I am (apart from a couple of the guys at JAW). They wouldn't be able to make an attack on my personal values if they tried.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but 80% of those posts have nothing to do with Oddworld.

No, you're more of a "claim to agree and contradict it with every other point I make" kind of guy, I can see that.

The thrust of my argument is more along the lines of "what you'd personally find more fitting is not an objectively superior design choice"; something I deliberately stated very clearly and very rudely to get your attention, yet it still managed to slip through your fingers.

Oh, sweet irony.

Wait, I really did do this bit in my last post! I know my debate skills are pretty pro, but you might want to check whether my arguments actually support your position before cribbing them.

But I accept it as an idiosyncrasy. There's your nuance.

Dude, I'm done but I hope you had fun typing all that.

Like you wouldn't believe.

Immersion breaking is a bit of a stretch. For me that only happens in games with a massive frame rate drop or a crash to desktop. For me, seeing a human in an oddworld game is about the same as seeing a mudokon in a games magazine. Stranger looks pretty human compared to most of the Oddworld characters (for the majority of his game at any rate). Worth keeping tabs on these kinds of things so they don't go overboard and start having adverts for McMollucks or StarGlukks though

I'm just gonna reiterate that breaking the fourth wall in secret areas is totally fine by my standards.

Watching Livestreams the ads seem hard to see but they might be very clear in 1080p on a HD television. I'm sure Havoc or Connell or someone else could chime in. So if they are clear I don't know if that's them being done poorly.

Certainly having promotions in the Extras menu would be clearer - although I do wonder if there would have been an even bigger backlash from those who find the whole idea intrusive?

Maybe they should just try the Extras approach for the Exoddus remake and compare reactions. Cause I still think the idea is a pretty good one.

This place is so much more fun when there are people to laugh at. Keep up the good work, Hominix.

I thought that was only in the beta? (The SoBe adverts)

He does make a good effort at fitting right in, doesn't it?

By arguing my opinion? By loving the franchise?

Did you guys expect me to continue on with an argument that hasn't moved forward in like three replies?

Did you guys expect me to read that ridiculous amount of text for single posts?

I didn't expect anyone to except Meech. We both stated our points, and there's really nowhere to go from here :fuzblink:

Does "downhill" count as somewhere?

Good point :p

Aside from all of my personal problems with them, they were responsible for some lower scores. That's the only objective truth in this argument.

I prefer to think of it as "some people weren't happy about it", an objective truth that applies to literally everything that has happened in human history.