Exactly: none.

If you admit your ideas don't need any respect, why don't you just shut up?

Please read what I already wrote. Ideas need no special protection than their own merits when discussed. And as for shutting up? Are you offended?

There's a difference between discussing ideas and shoving your ideas down other people's throats. You're doing the latter, BM.

I, on the other hand, don't give a shit if people believe that the angel Gabriel invented ice cream as a way to punish people who lack self control. It just doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form.


Time to just accept that people will always believe irrational things, and the more you fight it, the more they'll resist.

I'm not shoving any ideas down anyone's throats. Here I'm discussing them, and that is what I would like it to be like with all ideas. The parties involved discuss them willingly. One can always leave, or not pick up a book, or whatever. And if you feel the need to object, to stay and argue, then you bloody well had better have a clue or you won't be able to defend your ideas, and that's hardly my fault.

Protests are different matter. Those occur due to genuine grievances, and need to be loud and audible. Once again, if you disagree you can challenge them on an even field. I welcome it. But don't go behind our backs to the lawyers, or the gun racks, and don't think that "I'm offended" is an argument. I get offended sometimes too, but I follow that up with an argument.

If you think that constitutes a shoving down the throat, then don't stand around with your mouths open!

But if someone of a religion doesn't want to discuss their ideas, and another person starts abusing them?

Leave? I'm not supporting harassment. Publications, mostly.

Hmm, I'm gonna re-join just to say both of your arguments are pretty BS. It appears that you are highly opinionated BM? If I'm wrong please say but posts like "If you think that constitutes a shoving down the throat, then don't stand around with your mouths open!" are pretty banal.

I agree with Bullet Magnet. Completely. I will afford your religious nonsense no special considerations. None at all. If you wish to discuss it in my presence, I will let you know what I think of it just as if you were claiming that 2 and 2 is 5. Religious tolerance is just that. I tolerate you. That doesn't mean that I can't say that you're wrong.

There is a substantial difference between starting an argument and defending yourself.

If anyone of any religion came up to me and told me how to think or live my life I would not hesitate in talking back to them. I would not ever intrude into telling religious people what I think of them. That's rude and makes you no better than them.

Also pragmatically speaking, the whole drawing Muhammed thing and stuff of that kind is likely to lose the western world favour with Islam. This is a bad thing.

Yes you can burn Qu'rans if you want but you damn well shouldn't. Same with drawing Muhammed.

Yeh I dunno. I don't know where to stand on SP's take on religion but I'm not offended when they beast their way through christianity. It's funny.

South Park's 'cutting' social commentary always confuses me as to what exactly they're trying to say or what the point of it is.

And I don't think it's me.

It's not, I'm confounded as to what SP's commentary is, what it stands for and who it's audience is. To be honest though, I rarely watch.

Thank you!

There's a church right next to my house. I can watch their services from my bedroom window. I could barge in and interfere and tell them all about what I think of their beliefs. But that infringes on their right to congregate freely for the purpose of worship. As it is, this group doesn't do anything particularly outrageous and doesn't even ring the bell right outside my window. Well, once, and I'm not sure why, perhaps a child was messing around with it.

Now, I have views about the way those with moderate beliefs. I do not absolve them for making prayer and religion respectable, reinforcing and encouraging the idea that they are good in any way, enabling those who would (for example) rather pray than acquire medical care for desperately sick children, or fill the air with useless chaff, muddying things when confronted with religious practices that are unambiguously abusive, persuading us all to say "it's their faith, respect it" when scraping out the external reproductive organs of their girls and putting their women in cloth bags. They make it harder to rouse a popular opposition. I will say that to anyone, and I don't care if they are offended or not. They should be. But I'm not going to crash a service to do so. That is forcing it down people's throats, though I can't help but feel that that message needs to be.

You're right. We should never say a word about the horrendous human rights violations inherent in almost all religions, much less the ones that still take the right to commit these atrocities seriously.

I should just button my lip when I see my boss making hiring decisions based on whether or not they are "good Christian men". That's fine. I should let him continue to think that Christians are paragons of truth, goodness, and the American way.

I tell you what, it would be a lot easier for me to let their idiocy go unmatched, without voicing an opinion, if their beliefs weren't so disgusting and dangerous. They want us to give them concessions that they aren't willing to give us. They want to legislate their beliefs, and they want to silence anyone who doesn't believe the same thing they do. I don't want them silenced. I want them talking. The more they talk, the easier it is too make people see that they are wrong.

Thank you for putting so many words in my mouth.

The Qu'ran was written in such a way that it could be re-evaluated and kept up to date with changing society. Same with Jewish oral law, and Christianity (At least Catholicism) has already been revamped setting a precedent.

We shoud fight intolerence within religions from the inside by showing people that the grass is indeed greener, more open and more accepting on the other side. Mocking and laughing will get us as far as invading.

Okay. That sounds beautiful and all. It's just too bad that it isn't often the truth. Whether or not the intention was for it to evolve along with civilization (which is a hell of a stretch to begin with) isn't going to stop hardliners from taking the original interpretation as the true interpretation.

And I have to say that when people are being slaughtered every day because of religion, I find your point of view to not only be naive, but absurd.

The more we push the worse it will get.

I just don't see how that can be true.

Its not that hard to see.

You need to think about it from the perspective of a normal person in a middle eastern country.

If the west starts pushing for Islam to reform in a hard headed manner then chances are him or people like him are going to be pushed towards extremism.

It is, actually. The only reason that civilization has moved forward as much as it has is because people were willing to stand up and scream "You're wrong". If we hadn't martyred so many forward thinkers we would not be where we are today. So, yeah. I can't see how that can be true.

The extremists are the ones slaughtering people everyday, not your everyday Muslims. The more ignorant people, maybe not you, push against Muslims beliefs, the more will get fed up with it, and maybe join those extremists, and slaughter more people. Your method of calling peoples' beliefs naive and absurd seems to piss them off, the more they get pissed off, the more they are going to fight for what they believe in. What I think WoF is trying to say is that if we respect their beliefs, the regulars not extremists, less will turn to that extreme, and it might make the situation a bit better.

Except that I'm not just talking about Muslims, and I'm not just talking about extremists. I'm talking about your every day religious man who persecutes homosexuals through legislation, or believes that women should serve their husbands, and then pass this down through their children generation by generation. If there is no one to say that they are wrong, and present the reasons in a lucid manner, then nothing will change.

The word of the Lorax seems perfectly clear. UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.

Thank you, Mr Geisel, you beautiful man, you.

lol pretty much.

South Park will always be funny, the way they take current events and people's beliefs and just blow them out of proportion like that makes you realize how petty they really are in the first place. Fuckin' pro.

I see then, if you're talking about those unfortunate situations, then yes, they should be stood up against. I disagree with all of those things, but I seem to be the minority within my religion for most of those. But this branch of the argument started with WoF quoting you about people slaughtering others because of religion, thats why I thought you were focused on the extremists doing that, not your, unfortunately for the most part, everyday religious persons.

EDIT: Missed a page.

Yeah. These beliefs hurt others.

Wanting Muhammed to remain undefiled doesn't hurt anything, it doesn't even hurt free speech because people still do it.

Nobody is telling them to not want it. We're telling them that you don't get to make death threats if it happens. And comedy should never take people's feelings into consideration. Never.

I agree.
Comedy without consequence is boring. If complete cultural cooperation and acceptance means sacrificing provocative comedy, I think I'll pass. Shows like South Park have only lasted so long because they are constantly pushing the envelope. Comedy is an art form. Whether or not this applies to South Park is debatable. All the same, like any art form it will only ever be affective if it continues to challenge people's ideas and beliefs.