I think he's just using "God" as a placeholder word for a metaphysical cause to metaphysical effect. It confused me too.

I don't believe in a supreme being like a god. I believe in some of "them" having more influence than others, but no such thing as omnipotence or omniscience.

For the longest time I tried to figure out the notion of God and all theories attached to it. I reached the conclusion that no matter what I hypothesize, I'm probably wrong, and that it's downright asinine for me to assume I could comprehend anything on that level.

The idea of giving a "God" human characteristics in the grand scheme of things just seems laughable. It figures mankind would be so arrogant as to assume they're the center of creation.

Well, mankind is the only thing that mankind knows, so I guess it figures. I mean, I'd say we're a much more advanced design than the other species; it would be enough to convince the majority that they are the apex of all life in the universe, since they'd never even seen anything else.

That's why the notion of a humanoid God was fine hundreds of years ago. Things have changed, we've discovered there's so much more out there than just us, and to keep thinking in such small circles seems counterproductive to me.

Whatever. I'm not going to be responsible for turning this topic into a religious debate, I'm quite sick of them to to be honest. Ghosts are way cooler anyway.

Yes, but thinking in small circles is also non-time-consuming and comfortable. It's great for a lot of people.

The belief in ghosts and the belief in God can be very connected for some people (but not all, definitely), which is how I think this got started.

Any kind of force that holds together the universe must hold power over all the universe and know all about the universe.

H.P. Lovecraft got it surprisingly close to the mark with Azathoth. To be omnipotent and omniscient is to be static and impotent. Kind of like how Orwell said in 1984 that a state of perpetual war was a state of perpetual peace.

Never really had any substantial supernatural experiences, and my dreams normally just tell me things about myself.

Speaking of Ouija boards, I had a board that was given to me secondhand years ago, I used to use it by myself with some success, but it's usefulness was limited to simple yes and no answers only.

It was good for gaining insight into the present, but asking questions about the future yielded no response to erratic responses.

Where did "holding together the universe" come in? If something "exists", whatever existence may be, let's suppose for argument's sake that "existence" means capable of being perceived consciously through the senses, by any means, doesn't have to mean it automatically holds together the universe. As far as I could tell the discussion was about iwhether anything supernatural, so to speak, could take place, only that. But the statement itself involves too many ambiguous terms. Before it can make any sense whatsoever, we have to define "matter", define "universe", define "existence", define "force"...Have fun :P

My point is that it ultimately is quite irrational to make assumptions about anything external from the self, especially about such sweeping, definition-less terms like Matter or Universe.

Joe got his ass whooped by a girl.
I bet he enjoyed it.

This is pretty much the yield I've gotten out of the years of using them.
What can one hope to decipher from "GUETZITYVGG". Fucking illiterate ghosts.

If only matter exists then matter holds the universe together, the logical positivist stand (Of which I am most certainly not).

If something outside of the realms of matter exists then it at least suggests that matter is not the be all and end all. There is something existing outside the physical: The metaphysical.

Just as matter is governed by the laws of physics, things outside of matter must be governed by the laws of metaphysics.

Except for the huge gaping problem at the start (BOOM), the laws of physics are self-sustaining, you don't need to invoke any cosmic force to explain them. They just are.

What of the Metaphysical?
What laws govern ghosts?
Doesn't the existence of ghosts presuppose Cartesian Dualism?
What the hell did all this come from and where is it going?

Most definitely, I take a Wittgensteinian stance on these sorts of matters now; that it is through the use of things in their contexts and not through the origin and 'hidden' meaning of things that we find their purpose.

All this is basically what we've been saying. What I was trying to say is that being a part of something, if the metaphysical is indeed a part of the universe, doesn't suggest that this metaphysical actually holds the universe together, as you put it. Being a part of something is, I think, quite different from having power or even any sort of influence over it.

As for the first question, I see no problem with Cartesian Dualism except:
1. It separates awareness/consciousness from the physical self (if my understanding is incorrect, I apologise).
2. How can awareness exist without thought or sensation? If you are self-aware, so to speak, that is supposing that you are capable of thought and sensation.
3. Thought is generated by the brain and sensation by the physical self.
4. Both the brain and the physical self are material things.

As for the second question, I really have no idea. :P

-*Walks into thread looking for ghost stories*
-*Discussion about the nature of god and the universe*
-*Walks right the fuck back out*

Liar. You're not walking.

He's right, ontological discussions are slightly out of place here. My bad.

No, please proceed, I was just joking. It's good to have some deep thought in here.

Who says the things we attribute to be spirits, angels and demons didn't evolve on some other plane with the natural flow of the universe?

I sometimes have what scientist call "Sleep Paralasis". Where the body is asleep, the mind is fully aware, but your still dreaming. Its cool because if I think of something while in it, it comes to life to its fullest possibilty. I thought of flying over my local park. It was amazing.

I have a couple of strange occurances to share...

I myself have never had anything related to ghosts which is a shame since that field interests me, but I do have a few dream related things.

The most major "Deja Vu" dream I had was when I was about 6 years old. I had a dream that a building near a school field was set on fire (I found out years later that it was my secondary school field). For some reason I vividly remember the dream and have done since. About 10-11 years after the dream I pick up the newspaper to find that the drama mobile classroom (which was located next to the field) was burned down by teenagers.

Most of them though are just random points in time not related to anything (although I have predicted some Birthday/Christmas presents :p) they used to take place a couple of weeks after the dream but now it seems to be over a longer period and don't happen as often.

I have also had a few Lucid dreams but they don't happen very often at all.

I really need to get some kind of dream journal started up, i've been meaning to since one of those "Deja Vu" dreams a year ago.

A year ago my brother got married and so I met a bunch of his spiritualist friends. He was quite horrified to be told that, in several of their opinions, I was far more psychic than even him. Sadly, this seems to be localised specifically to episodes of The Simpsons; whenever I think of an scene or a quote, within two weeks it will air on tv. Then again, 100% of all psychics incorrectly predicted the gender of my sister's firstborn so make of that what you will.


And to respond to various previous posts:
The latter. When Deja Vu occurs, you see something, start storing it in memory but then your brain farts briefly. You look at it again and think you're seeing it for the first time, but you've still got the memory there from mere seconds ago, so you think you must have dreamed it.

I challenge any common Deja Vu-er to write down their 'predictions' as they come. You will find that they never ever happen except at the moment of 'Woah'.

In response to everyone who believes they have seen a ghost, particularly in an old house, read this Wikipedia article on Infrasound. Infrasound are sound waves that are too low pitched for humans to hear. However, they can be felt and often cause feelings of unease, discomfort and cold. What's more, sounds of approximately 18Hz are at the resonant frequencies of the human eye, which can cause blotches or shapes in your vision that can easily be interpreted as ghosts.

This is a short and interesting case study that you might like to read. Also, it should be pointed out that infrasound is often caused in old buildings by the wind blowing through the eaves.

kinda happens to me........

I believe that most of the advertised "psychics" are fake, they're just looking to make some money, the real ones usually keep to themselves/hide it or are spread around through word of mouth.

Although I don't have much confidence in my ability...

I accept your challenge :D

In fact I had a dream a couple of weeks ago that might yet happen it was a bit different then usual though.

In my dream I was at home and started watching the news. The news showed a man pacing backwards and forwards with a gun near the park where I live with a crowd watching him. I then woke up and fell asleep again and had a similar dream. However this time I was walking past the scene, the same thing was going on but I could see that the guy seemed to be depressed/suicidal. I just walked past the crowd not getting involved.

If this dream does come true since the first one shows it on the news I should be able to prove it. If it doesn't it's just a blow to my pride.

Maybe I should create a thread based on any dreams I have from now on. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I get that and my boring, rational explanation is that they always show it on TV in production order, so after a few goes round, you start remembering which episodes aired at a similar time last time round.
Sorry to kill the dream :p

I see the idea of a link between omnipotence and impotence (if you can do anything, what is there to do? The ultimate bored child phenomena) but don't think it applies to the God I believe in. God is inspired to act through love. Sometimes that means doing nothing and sometimes that means doing anything.
In terms of your metaphysical holding the universe together, the Bible says all creation is held together by God. He didn't just 'wind up and let go' but he is still actively keeping the world running.
The human race is so ignorant. Think of all the things that you think 'I don't understand that, but I'm sure there are scientists somewhere do'. I would love to see a book of 'Things you think the human race knows that we actually don't' - I wanna buy that; it'd be fascinating! We don't know why gravity works. Why does the spinning Earth mean things stick to it? We don't know. 97% of the universe is 'missing'; our understanding of the universe says it should exist but we can't see it and we don't know what it's made from.

There is so much that we don't know, and so much we completely fail to understand, and I wonder if in 50, 100, 200 years we'll still be looking for answers. Which makes me think that some things simply can't be explained without a faith in the supernatural.

I don't like the idea of throwing god into the gaps to explain them, Splat. It doesn't sit well with me.

I think God filled a lot of the gaps long before we knew the gaps were there.
Though I see where you're coming from. But maybe the gaps are there because people won't use a belief in God to fill them. I mean why are we so quick to separate God from science?

Because Science is about what we can see, hear, touch, smell, poke, prod, piss on, or affect in some way.

I've yet to see someone piss on god.

Unless god is everywhere in which case he must smell like a hell of a lot of urine???

However when it comes down to it the foundation of science is theory/guesswork which is basically the same as religion. Science just changes the way we live physically (such as objects) instead of mentally (such as choices/actions). Of course there are exceptions.

Psychology is a science.

so does that mean u believe in god splat? (i do BTW since ye all know i am a muslim)
and something i forgot to add , but it wasn't really that much of a sleep disorder , is that i talk and answer ppl in my sleep , i think it's genetic since it happens to a lot of ppl in my family , one of them actually walks while sleeping and it's hilarious he even got up one night and pulled his younger sister's cover off her...lol