In response to OANST:
1. That isn't our problem, if we help them, more and more will come, and Mexico itself won't solve the problem, because the people just move here.
2. America was founded on freedom. The Native Americans welcomed the white man at first, though later in the years we started taking land. Which I admit was mean, but if you call the original immigrants from England illegal, then you're a fucking retard.

Finally, you have no right what so ever to talk about this problem unless it affects you. I'm talking to all of you.

This nation absolutely was not founded on freedom. You ought to get smacked in the teeth just for thinking that. This nation was founded on the idea that you get what you want by taking it. You do realize that when this nation began we had both indentured servants and slaves, right? RIGHT? Since the only reason you're an American is because your parents fucked here I don't think you have the right to keep people out. Especially since most of your and Mitsur's reasons are based on racist ideas of who Mexicans are. Support their forty children? They're all gang members? You know I like you Daxter, but seriously, fuck you.

I was damned serious about my friend having that many brothers and sisters, he called his own family rabbits, not I. I am aware there were indentured servants, but what the hell does that have to do with getting what you want by taking it?

That in particular has nothing to do with taking what you want. It has a great deal to do with claiming that this is a country founded on freedom.

Founded on freedom, Built upon the backs of slaves.






God bless America.

The original immigrants from ENGLAND? We were there a LONG time before those English guys were. We, Holland, the Dutchies, build up the foundation America is build on and you better know that. We are the ones who build New Amsterdam, which you might know better as New York. America is not founded on freedom, it's founded on the idea of doing as you please without caring about anyone else. That's why those immigrants left England in the first place, they didn't like how they were limited in what they could do so they left.

OANST: Yea, in a perfect world there would be no borders and the president of the world would actually be intelligent. Guess what, there are borders, there are laws and these people are by definition illegal. There's no use in shouting about how things SHOULD be, if you want to make a point then base it on how the situation is and not how it should be. The current situation is that there IS a border between Mexico and America and there ARE laws in place that say that unless the government approves you, you are illegal and do not have the right to collect money, housing or any other kind of resource from the American government. Fact is that if these people live in America they are often not on any record and often have a job while someone else was hoping to get that same job because he needs an income just as bad as the other guy. Should people who don't even pay tax get jobs that people who do pay tax need to even pay the tax in the first place?
Secondly, and this might be generalizing but you hear it more often then not, these people make hardly any effort to repay society for what they are given. Despite them being illegal they get housing, money, jobs, food, water and they don't even attempt to speak the language properly a lot of times. Illegal immigrants also have their fair share in the crime percentage, whether you like it or not. Yes of course there are Americans who are criminals too but these illegal immigrants repay what they get by robbing a store or breaking into a house. Again, not all of them, but a decent share of them. And don't go throwing around figures and stuff, it's about principle, yes. Despite it being against the law you are accepted into a country by the society around you and you do absolutely nothing to repay them in the long run, not even attempt to speak the native language of the country you're staying in.

Havoc

Crime is one of those pesky problems that actually do arise from illegal immigrants. It's difficult to track the doings of a person who you have no documentation on, much less finger them as the culprit of a crime. I never claimed that this was a black and white issue. There are ways to go about fixing these problems, however. Our president, schmuck that he is, has proposed a decent beginning to these problems. The guest worker program is not a complete solution by any means but it's a start and I give him credit for trying despite it putting him at odds with his base. This is a difficult question to answer but the easy answer of they aren't me so I don't give a shit bothers me to no end. These are human beings. They have or had dreams and they love and they die. They aren't abstractions. They are people who in many cases just cannot find the means to do the thing through the correct channels because we have made it so difficult for anyone brown who isn't independantly wealthy to get approved.

Stop turning this into a racial issue. This is not about race, this is about free loaders entering a country and expecting to be accomadated. Just because most of them happen to be from Mexico doesn't make it a racial issue, any more than the majority of Muslims being Indonesians makes the War on "Terror" a racial issue. Just because someone holds different political views to you or Noam Chomsky doesn't mean they hate brown people.

How can you say it has nothing to do with race? Are you blind or stupid? In this topic alone there have been at least fifteen generalisations about what the typical Mexican must be like. And I guarantee you that if Havok wanted to become a U.S. citizen he wouldn't have a hard time of it. You're a jackass. This I know. For the Bible told me so. Cause it's not real. And you believe it.

I would object if anyone came over into my house and started insisting they had a right to camp in my yard and live off me as a dependent. I don't care if their white, black, yellow, brown, or green. They are freeloaders and should piss off and get off my lawn lest I do it for them with Mr Foot.

What the hell has my religion got to do with this? I'm not shoving it in your face, calling for you to repent, calling for you to join my religion, you bigoted hypocrite. Not all Christians are like the weirdoes quoted on Fundies Say The Darndest Things. You're an obnoxious, self righteous, annoying troll.

Yes but the grand majority of people aren't at your level of intelligence and maturity oh great Patrick Vykkers. People are stupid! They judge based on what they see more immediately then anything else. And yes, a different skin color and culture is enough for people to weave an entire web of prejudices and biases before they even meet the actual people.

1. Of course they need our help. But that dosen't mean just come on in and take what you need. They could actually be decent and try to get all the correct things done, not take everything without doing the legal stuff and deprive someone who's worked for it for the resources. All people need to do to get this matter resolved is to take the time to get things done in the legal way. That way nobody has a decent reason to argue against them.

I'm just tired of people coming in illegaly, and then getting support for it. How can people be so retarded as to support breaking laws and giving away money that could be better spent instead of blowing it on people who are free-loading?

And no, I'm not basing all of my arguements on generalizations. I've lived in an area that was filled with illegals. They barely spoke English, disrupted school, formed gangs, and generally harrased the community. However, there was a small part of them that seemed to be trying to adjust and be good citizens, but it was a small part.

Like I said before, I'm sure there's a small percentage of illegal immigrants who are planning to help out the country they were smuggled into, but the vast majority from what I've seen is more interested in making money than helping the US.

Get back on topic people, otherwise I will start handing out warnings.

- Rexy

Shut your hole rexy, they're completely on topic.

I hate how both Spirrow and Cullen have become jerks. Always taking offence at something.

Shut up, and get some balls, Cullen. The world is not out to get you.

Same to you, Spirrow.

Now that is something I agree with you on.

Well, actually, she was referring to the people who's posts she had just deleted. Even if you can't see them, that's a totally innappropriate way to address her.

I live in the suburbs of Dallas. Dallas has many, many immigrants, quite a few of whom are illegal. Probably not as many as a San Antonio, but definitely quite a few. I know this firsthand, because over the past 10 years, ethnic demographics have changed drastically. I can't take a 5 minute drive without getting behind a car with a 97.9 fm bumper sticker slapped on the back. Hell, I can't even go wash my car without hearing tejano music blaring from a nearby stall as they vaccum and shampoo the inside of their car.

And yet, I don't really mind. In fact, I actually feel kind of bad.

Most hispanics in my town (of a modest 100,000 ish people) live in 3+ decade old houses around the southern half of town. Most come with little startup capital, and most also send money back to relatives in Mexico. Most of you DO know the emphasis some cultures place on extended family, right? What a horrible crime, working in low end service jobs for a temporary time period in a place where you can actually earn money. And crime/biggotry against illegals is just as bad as the crime by them; lacking citizenship isn't justification to ignore natural rights, or even basic respect.

There's some giant mythos regarding these dirty, shady mexicans that sneak across and create a labor scarcity for us hard working Americans. They disrespect our culture by by bringing theirs, and provide no beneficial positions to our workforce. What a load of bull. If there was a refocus on gangs that recruit and prey on these people, or corporations that pull bullshit to marginally reduce operating costs, it'd certainly help a lot more than crying about immigrants that don't speak "our" language.*

*The language issue is a particular pet peeve of mine. To be honest: it hardly affects most of us. When was the last time you were stuck in a dire situation involving a non-English speaking chap? I have a friend who recently moved from seating people to grilling in the kitchen at a local steakhouse. He's hardly a brainiac, and yet over a matter of 2 months he's been able to develop a rudimentery (but still passable) combination of English and Spanish with those on the staff who aren't fully bilingual. So suck it.

I understand that they are here to make money to send back to their families and such, make a better life for themselves and their children, etc.

But you completely missed the point of what I've been driving at. The fact that a large amount of immigrants are entering the US illegaly, and are protesting to get rights for themselves.

So, in my view, people who are breaking the law to come into a country are asking to be given the same rights as a regular citizen of the US who had been born and raised in the country. This whole thing is soaking up tax dollars and valuable time that could be spent on other stuff instead of stupid shit like giving law-breakers the same amount of protection as law-abiding citizens.

To me, this is completely backasswards.

Thank you. You speak the truth.


Mitsur, they are protesting their illegal status. They want to become legal citizens but it is extremely difficult. Ask Cat Stevens.

So are you suggesting making it legal to enter the US by sneaking across the border?

That's a shit excuse and we all know it.

Just because it's difficult dosen't mean you should cheat and come over illegaly, then get the same rights as people who did it the legal way.

I'm suggesting we make it less difficult for people to start a new life.

So you'd let any Tom, Dick and Harry in?

You mean let in any Enrique, Jesus and Pedro?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I say tighten border security for people trying to enter the country illegally. However in conjunction with that there has to be more importantly a crack down on corrupt practices pertaining to illegals. Immigrants are great we've always been about immigration for the most part, problem is illegal immigration and the lazy policy towards punishing companies who exploit them for profit and take away money and jobs from the actual citizens of this country.

People seem to forget that 90% of Americans are immigrants, and I hardly can say they signed papers with the native americans, eh?

Maybe it's just me, but we should make it easier to let people in legally?
It's not like we are getting over-populated. We have plenty of areas to build new cities, but the fact is nobody wants to. Except the immigrants...

And you must be so proud.

But seriously, you could hardly say that any particular country in the original clusterfuck of European settlements were the "definitive foundation of America." The Colonies, founded by England, were the true beginnings of the USA. You should feel fortunate.

...

As for the actual subject, God I want to be OK with the immigrants SO FRIGGIN' bad. Every rational, good-natured bone in my body wants me to be OK with it. But for some reason, whenever someone brings up the subject of illegal immigration, the intolerant neo-con nazi in my head gives the proverbial "SIG HEIL!" and I get all disgruntled.

I honestly don't know what's wrong with me. Too much Merkan blood, I guess.

Just because the British took over the French colonies doesn't mean they are the foundation and beginning of the USA. If anything they rode along on Europe's setup in America and then backstabbed every one of us as soon as they didn't need France anymore. In terms of trade foundation Holland and Spain made America and yes that is something that I'm proud off because I can rub it in any American's face whenever I want to.
New York was founded and build by Dutch colonies.
San Fransisco was founded and build by Spanish colonies.
Los Angeles, same story, founded and build by the Spanish.

The biggest city in America was build by us.
The second biggest city in America was build by the Spanish.
The English colonies didn't do anything vital to the American foundation except kill all the natives to grab the land.

Know your history dude.

Havoc

I think his point is that the Netherlands may have been their first but you can't trace any of the cultural or legal roots back there. After all, citizens of the USA speak a form of English and when courts need legal precedent older than a few hundred years, they go to British law.