Havoc: I want to clarify my position.

I agree with you that I don't get what the fuss is about in this case. But I still maintain that the Christians have a right to protest this if it offends them. That's why I brought up the example of Piss Christ as a similar issue where they had more than enough justification to be pissed off. Pun unintended.

EDIT: I've rejigged this thread to seperate it from the Current Affairs one.

Come on... Am I not the only one thinking this?

None of you are people!

Exactly. If Muslims can moan about stuff, why can't Christians?

Although some people would deny Muslims that right too...

But as we all know by now, muslims can turn very violent and demanding. I'm not saying any other group doesn't, but muslims tend to stick to together a whole lot more than other religious people.

Supreme Court just punked out and said they wouldn't rule on giving habeus corpus rights to captured "terrorist suspects". So long Bill of Rights and Constitution, it was nice knowing you.

Hate speech is anything that is intended to directly offend an individual for something they cannot control (i.e. race, religion, mental illness, etc.). However, calling the Nazis distusting because of the Holocaust is not a form of hate speech, as that wast something they could control. They chose to torture and kill thousands of Jews, so whenever someone calls their group a pack of animals, or monsters, they are completely justified in doing so. However, if someone to call any German a Nazi, that would be considered hate speech, since they would be attacking the entire because of the sins of just a single group.

And my apologies for typing this up so late. I was exhausted all day yesterday, and lacked the brain power to type anything intelligent up as a result :p.

To be fair, Muslims tend to be violent and demanding (and much more severely and frequently than Christians) because of the Qur'an's instructions, which they have been taught usually at an early age. I think making the comparison is a bit misguided, considering that Christianity is largely a peaceful religion, whereas Islam is a violent pseudoreligion and political ideology that is currently being looked at by the West through Chamberlainian glasses. Also, on the "hate speech" issue, most of the Nazis would have been killed had they not obeyed their orders. Does that make speaking against them "hate speech"?

If they didn't believe in committing such atrocities, they aren't real Nazis, so those typed of insults wouldn't apply to them now would they? After all, why would they take offense to such insults, if they were against the things they were forced to do? Would they not agree with the person who was bashing the Nazis, instead?

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

Do you really believe that? Have you never heard of the crusades? More recently, have you never heard of Christians who go round bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors who prescribe the morning after pill? The Army of God, Eric Robert Rudolph, various white supremacy groups... the list goes on.

On the other side, what about the many (MANY) Arabs and Muslims who believe in peace or don't care much about global politics but simply want to live their lives as best they can? What about Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat and the many others who have dedicated their lives to fighting the sort of belief system you blatantly assume all their people follow?

Stop and think before you make that sort of blanket statement again.

I hate it when people try and mix the words Arab and Muslim. It is a dishonest tactic to attempt to paint opponents of Islam as racists, when Islam is not a race, but a religion.

The Crusades were a defensive conflict against centuries of Islamic aggression (http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm, http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005439.php)The abortion bombers and others had zero Biblical support for their actions. Few of them even quoted scripture. The Qur'an has more than three times the amount of violent or intolerant verses in terms of density than the Bible (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....or-quran.html). If Wafa Sultan and other people like her are so Muslim, why were there, at most, 200 people marching in an American Free Muslims Against Terror rally (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006178.php). Also, see my signature. How many Christian terrorist attacks in the last century can you name? How are those Biblically connected? Are they supported by hundreds of years of Christian jurisprudence?

The Qur'an's peaceful verses are largely towards Muslims, and even then, are abrogated (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013367.php). If you think Islam is peaceful, well, Khoemeini, who's funeral was stormed by thousands of followers, disagrees with you;
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
(http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=15983)

That's why I made the distinction between Arabs and Muslims and didn't use the word 'race'. In any case, the definition of 'racism' has loosened so that it can be used to describe discrimination against a religious or cultural group.

In any case, with the exception of your comment about the crusades, I don't strictly disagree with what you are saying. My point is that you really shouldn't tar every member of a group with the same brush. Especially when you're using examples from a book as imprecisely translated as the Koran. The verse referring to wiping out the infidels can just as easily be translated to order preaching to them. Simililarly, the verse that suggests beating a rebellious wife can be translated as any of "beat, hit, strike, scourge, chastise, flog, make an example of, spank, pet, tap and even seduce".

In addition, judging a religion by its text rather than its practise is only ever going to give you the wrong idea. The Old and New Testaments have similarly disgusting verses that are clear in their interpretation but are more or less ignored by scholars today. Things like beating a rebellious son and the capital punishment of burning (more precisely: pouring hot lead down the throat of the High Priest's daughter in the even of her being caught having an affair with a non-jew) were not even practised in ancient times.

When I was speaking about Muslims, I meant the Muslims who were whining and burning down embassies and calling for beheading of people insulting Islam. Not all Muslims. To quote Winston Churchill "Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities – but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.". Also, racism is racism, just as a rectangle has four corners, or pedophilia is wrong. Otherwise, you could say Waco was ethnic cleansing, or that Janet Reno was a racist.

Okay. I can explain the difference between calling Havok a tiger ****er all over the forum (which he isn't, he just wishes he was) and putting a tora scroll in piss at a museum is. This is a public forum which is not intended to be a haven for slander. If there was a forum expressly created for tiger ****ers or for slanderers or just for shit talking that would be the place to do it. Neither would it be acceptable to put pictures of a tora scroll emersed in urine here if someone objects to it as this is not an art forum or a Jewish desecration forum. It is acceptable to put something like that in a museum. A museum is a place that is designated for art (be it good or be it bad). It would also be acceptable to place said item in a hotel because it is private property. However, nothing like that would ever happen because the guests would be disgusted by it. Ultimately an institutions desire to show something of this nature is going to be quickly hampered by their loss of sales and it will no longer see the light of day.

In conclusion, Havok is a tiger ****er.

Regardless of whether you judge Islam by its text or practice, you will get the impression it is a highly violent religion. Look at my sig again. How many Christian terrorist attacks have their been in the world for the last century, much less since 9/11? And I think the fact that Christianity spread by non violent preaching and Islam by war (http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/T...the_sword.html) and the fact that it's "prophet" had such a bad life by virtually anyone's standards (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm) shows that the "tree" of Islam is much more corrupt. Taking the approach of "by their fruits you shall know them", what do we have? Christianity, peaceful evangelizing, a self defensive war with a few massacres almost immediately condemned by the religious authorities of the day, an Inquisition killing about 2000 people (http://www.tektonics.org/qt/spaninq.html), some attempted terrorist attacks by a few people with virtually zero Biblical support, mainstream Christian support, and little attempts to justify their acts using scripture, a few terrorist groups with similar conditions, and citation of verses of specific commands by God for tribe X to kill tribe Y, and tribe Y was typically expansionistic and brutal. Islam, thousands upon thousands of terrorist attacks in barely half a decade, numerous major ones, one of which involved largely the murder of children, the continuing attitude from Islam of "We're sorry, we are a religion of peace blah blah blah.. BUT THE WEST DID WORSE!", Qur'anic citation for virtually every terrorist act, and that's just over 6 years.

And you better not ****ing forget it. :)

Havoc