Erm - i don't believe i disagreed with you with Blacks having it harder than Gays. I did, however, say that if all Homosexuals were of a different colour, chances are, we'd face exactly the same discrimination that the Blacks did. Since sexuality doesn't affect the colour of ones skin, then it is a lot harder to discriminate, unless somebody is obviously Gay [bone structure, voice etc].

And Neph - i got the impression you were saying that Christians don't tolerate Homosexuals, because of your comment to do with the Sinner and Sin thing.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They MUST be put to death".
Leviticus 20:13

Doesn't religion teach us some wonderful lessons in life?

Jacob, thou maketh me to laugh hysterically.

...Oops! Sorry about that misunderstanding, then.

Let me try to explain somewhat. We don't like homosexuality (The sexual lifestyle), but if a person choses to practice that lifestyle, they have the free will to be allowed to do so. We can talk to them about it and such, but using force to convert someone (Convert or die kind of thing) is prohibited and frowned upon in the Bible. However, we are not allowed to support it.

Think of it like this. Suppose your next-door friend smokes, and you don't (Yes, I know smoking is different, but bare with me). You know he smokes, and you disapprove of it, be he does of the right to smoke if he wants to, so you let him. However, if he comes over, asking for money to buy cigarrettes or whatever, you say no because he refuse to support his habit, or anything which might approve of it.

I think that's how it works. I'd probably better check, so...

Yep...that was back in the days before Christ, when all sins had to be reconcilled by the people who committed them. Some sins might be forgiven with just the sacrifice of a dove, or the best barnyard animal...but the more serious ones...well, there you go.

But, then Christ came and died for our sins as the utlimate sacrifice. As such, true repentance and faith is all that is required to save oneself, no matter how deep into the pit you have gone, you can always climb out. No animal offerings, nor personal, "loss," is required to set you square with the lord.

AKA: Homosexuals don't have to pay

Out of intrigue, and this is directed to all the heavily Religious people who won't accept the evidence brought forth about Homosexuality being nature not nurture.

If there was more proof, that was 100% reliable and 100% Scientifically proven, and everything about it was 100% in support of Homosexuality being nature instead of nurture, then would you all accept that Homosexuality is not a choice or a lifestyle, but something nobody can choose?

Also, what exactly makes you all think that people would want to be Gay?

Interesting question...not quite sure if I have an answer for that...well, almost no answer.

Of the lebsians, a good majority openly admitted to it being a lifestyle choice. Also, I do believe there have been cases of people turning away from that lifestyle, but I need to check this.

Although science has never proved it to be natural, some evidence suggests that it is something, for lack of a better word, "branded," into the psyche, usually at a young age I think, and reflects on the child's parenting (Bad parenting could potentially be a cause). Again, I may need to double check.

However, if it is, "branned in," that would mean it would have been artificially added, as opposed to something someone was born with.

Umm, I'm a Christian, and I approve of all the mentioned stuffs. In fact, there are homosexual Christians.

Yes, it would seem as though blacks have had a more difficult past than gays. However, why can't they both be allowed to have an equally acceptance by society today and in the future?

Blacks won their freedoms, despite the still present racism and stuff. Why can't gays do the same? Interestingly enough, at one point, people were lead to believe that not turning in a runaway slave was a sin.

As for the list, I'd like to add that gays can't even have a family, unless they're lesbians and one gets artificially inseminated. And the intolerance of their sexuality counts is equal to racism.

(Geez, I really didn't mean to get another debate started. Oh well.)

Oh, and I must agree with Jacob, if there was some sort of way of telling a person is gay by the color of their skin, they would suffer exactly as the African-Americans do.

EDIT: This is directed at Neph's last post. Bad parenting? Come on... All of my gay friends have great parents... except one.

Only in some churches. We've got to remember there are many different branches of Christianity now, but the Catholic Church is one like what Nepharski said, and there are many others that don't support homesexuality. And then there are the ones which support and approve of it, and then there are the ones that hate it and seek to destroy it. Which is why judging all Christians based on the action of one church just doesn't work.

Hmm. I really don't think someone could spontaneously choose to be gay. Not that I know much about the topic, but it seems more likely to me that these women were probably gay and chose to embrace their homosexuality. I can't imagine they said "I think I'll be a lesbian" and started being attracted to other women. But those are just my thoughts on the subject.

Our president is bombing innocent countries and this is what they find offensive... no wonder God created death.

Bwah ha ha ha!

That was refreshing.

I should just add that the sacrifice needed to be accompanied by a sincere repentance. The dove (I think the dove was the only animal used for repentance sacrifices, the cows and sheep were for other things) was merely a way of proving through actions your devotion to God. And maybe God just likes roast dove, I don't know. ;)

'Although science has never proved it to be natural, some evidence suggests that it is something, for lack of a better word, "branded," into the psyche'

I'm sure in some instances that is true. Much like how Heterosexuality is "branded" into the psyche. From a very early age, children are taught that men and women love each other. And no nothing about men and men/women and women. They're brought up in a very Heterosexual society. Now, one could say that, that was Heterosexuality being branded on children. I remember following the crowd and conforming to the whole Heterosexual lifestyle when i was a teenager [eyeing them up as they walked by etc even though i didn't find them remotely interesting or arousing].

Only recently has this began to change, mainly in Soaps. Since most Soaps have the token Gay guy thrown in, which i find hilarious.

And the whole thing about it being "branded" into the psyche still doesn't explain why some Homosexuals have feminine bone structures/voices/mannerisms etc.

'Also, I do believe there have been cases of people turning away from that lifestyle'

Yes, i've heard of these cases too. Mainly people of a Religious nature. Though i saw a Documentary once were this Gay guy actually went to one of these places, to see if it did work, anyway, they put him through some interesting trials, including the last one were they hooked him upto a chair that had an electric current passing through it, and would show Pornographic images on the screen [two women, a man and a woman, two men] and everytime the image of the two men came up, he would get an electric shock. He even said it put him off Gay porn.

But surely all of this is proof that Heterosexuality can be chosen?

Ah, my friend, I said RELIGION, not Christianity. Jews don't recognise Jesus as their messiah, therefore Jews are required to kill gays.

But it's a matter of personal preferance, I support gay rights, so a Religion that condemns gays would be against my moral beliefs.

Ok, you're perfectly entitled to this opinion. However, giving gays equal rights would not be approval or support as such. You're giving them equal rights, everyone deserves a chance at equal rights.
You should only dissaprove if you are equal.

Discrimination is bad.

Discrimination is not bad, discrimination with prejudice is bad. Discrimination is simply to choose one thing over another, which every person does at least once a day!
I was going to go on more, but no one is getting anywhere in this debate, so I'm going to finish right here.

That's a valid point, Gretin. But in this case I don't think it applies. Discrimination against gays is prejudiced, because there is no valid reason to discriminate against them. Except religious beliefs.

It always comes back to religion. No matter how much I try to escape it, so much is controlled by religion.

The way I see it, religion should be ONLY about finding god (or Nirvana, or whatever you want to call it). So my question is, what does people having sex with people of the same sex have to do with god? I would say nothing. Therefore using a religious standpoint to justify discriminating against something is absolutely not valid.

Yes, there is a huge difference. Smoking is a harmful addictive habit. I would hardly call two people loving each other, wanting to marry each other, and adopting children a "bad habit." I wouldn't support a smoker because smoking leads to the end of some lives, but I would support a homosexual's equal rights because that leads to building a better life for him or her.

Anyway, I really don't want to further this new debatey thing, so unless I come up with some new huge point, I think I'll call it quits.

The main point is, Christianity seeks to create equality. Jesus was all about equality. But that is not happening. Therefore, you are all hypocrites.

Alcar...

Maybe. :p
Every time that various Governments try to get people equality, the leaders of the followers of Jesus (Christians) try to stop them recieving it.

Non-Christians/ tolerant Christians: Gay Rights Now!
Goverment: ok...
Christian leaders: Noooooooo!

Whatever. I'm leaving this topic. I can't believe how this has mushroomed into a giant issue taking over every aspect of our lifes.

Before I go, I would just like to say that gays have a new term for people like me. I am an, "Imperialistic Heterosexual." Apparantly I, and people like me, are wrongly forcing heterosexuality upon the youth of today as the norm.

All these countless people tying to force me to condone and approve of what I know in my heart is wrong...bah! I'll have none of that.

P.S. Alcar, find one verse that supports homosexuality (Heck, find one that even says, "meh, it's okay."). I've already posted a long time ago verses to support my argument, but I'd like to see some for yours. Thanks.

Dammit, this has devolved into the exact same thing as the homosexuality debate thread. We should either reopen that one or stick to the topic. Not to say that I haven't contributed to the hijacking of this thread . . . Yay hypocrisy!

In relation to the topic: I loathe that this organization has been attacked at all, let alone in such an absurd and stupid way, but honestly, if SpongeBob were to get a good ole-fashioned media beating, I wouldn't mind. Out of simple hilarity they have bred a horrible monster of a cartoon marketing device, and it's time someone took it down. If they fail, I will finish the job for them. With a boomstick.

Death to the Bob.

I suppose I'll just go and top myself then.

Sorry, it just pisses me off the way some people portray Judaism as a bloodthirsty religion. But lets not turn this into another religion thread.


On-Topic, thanks to The Age newspaper letters page on tuesday:

My name is Arnand Krishnan. I am 10 years old and live in Victoria and I am outraged by the article about Spongebob. I think you should tell this American bum to go and jump off a cliff because Spongebob is not gay.

Personally I question whether any 10 year olds actually use the word 'outraged' or whether mummy helped (read: wrote the entire thing for) him.

I probably used the word outraged when I was ten. I'm cool like that.

Sorry. I know that Jews don't really kill gays.
The Jews I've met are some of the nicest people in the world. Probably because of the holocaust, it's hard to think that Jews would be bloodthirsty.

On-Topic: I guy I know at school recently kissed a guy in a club. The guy is not actually gay, he was drunk and kissed a transvestite. Yet his friends are abandoning him because of societies views on gays.

Even though I don't like the guy, he doesn't deserve this. We need tolerance of gays now.

'On-Topic: I guy I know at school recently kissed a guy in a club. The guy is not actually gay, he was drunk and kissed a transvestite. Yet his friends are abandoning him because of societies views on gays.'

Take him under your wing. Make him popular. Make him powerful. Then crush his old friends. And CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES!!

'Sorry. I know that Jews don't really kill gays.'

Excuse me!? I find that deeply offensive. As i recall, when Hitler was rounding up the Jews, it was the Jews who pointed to the Gays and said "Excuse me! What about them? They mount boys!! THEY MOUNT BOYS!!"

So, technically, they did kill Gays. And still do. Jewish conspiracy.

They also try and make Hamster-Monkey hybrids. DAMN THEM! DAAAAMN THEM!!

I never said there were verses in support of. If there were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But then what about all the verses about all the things we do today, that are biblically barbaric? The treatment of women, the treatment of outsiders, the clothes we wear, etc, etc. My point is, that you, along with every other Christian, including myself, are hypocrites that have no right to judge when we break the same rules.

Off-topic, you said that you know homosexuality is wrong, and that it eminates from your heart. Controlling my absolute disbelief to the utmost, I will simply say that it isn't your heart you're listening to. Your heart knows no bounds that humans place on it. It sees the oppressed and knows it is wrong to seperate and abuse. Only brainwashing could get you to say that.

On a side note, how would you explain, mine, or other Christians who are pro-gay, ability to notice where justice is not prevailing? Are WE the deluded ones?

Alcar...

Quite honestly, I could care less if someone's gay or not. It's simply that person's business, not mine, and I have no right to judge because of what they do or believe. That's just my personal opinion though. For those of you who are anti-Gay, why? I could never understand why people think that. Is it simply just because of what's in the Bible? If so that's understandable I suppose. But some people take it a little far I think.

Alcar has a point, though. I highly doubt ever Christian lives a holy life based on what's in the Bible completely. Our society today just makes it difficult to live that style of life. But hey, what do I know?

That's my two cents.

I'd just like to say that it pisses me off that people can't have their right to choose a lifestyle. The things people will do to 'purify' society is pretty sick. I'm all for gays, and I have some gay friends, I don't see what wrong with it. In my opinion, if you rely on the Bible for that stuff, then why don't you stone people who commit adultery? I mean, Jesus (no pun intended).
Just my $00.02

Anyway, here's a quote from a "Life in Hell" book that I think proves a point:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States against anything un-American, and to the Republicans for which it stands, two nations, under Jesus, rich and poor, with curtailed liberty and justice for all...

Except blacks, gays, women who want abortions, Communists, welfare queens, treehuggers, femenazis, illegal immigrants, and children of illegal immigrants.

The answer simply goes into the roots of your moral beliefs.

Paramiteabe... :fuzblink:

I guess some people just have horrible beliefs.

I think it's very funny that there's so much stress on morals and values by anti-gays. Isn't tolerance a virtue? Is it immoral to accept someone else as they are?

I'm seeing articles about this SpongeBob incident pop up everywhere. There was one on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, a couple in the daily paper, one on the MSN homepage. It's amazing how much press this little thing is getting.