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In Which I Am Needy And Self-Centred


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In Which I Am Needy And Self-Centred

Posted 04-10-2015 at 07:24 PM by MeechMunchie
I'm not sure if I'm a nice guy or a "Nice Guy".

So, just to refresh everyone's memory, a "Nice Guy" is someone who maintains that they are compassionate and altruistic when in fact they're quite self-centred and view kindness as a means of getting people to pay attention to them.

I am compassionate and altruistic, but I also feel like people don't treat me as well as I deserve. You can see my confusion.

Where does one draw the line between feeling entitled to kindness and just feeling shit because people don't care about you? Can a person be altruistic and lonely without the altruism being a front for the loneliness? I'd like to think so.

I've always maintained that I'm loyal and deeply principled. I value honesty over everything, take criticism on the chin when I think it's justified, and will readily go to extreme lengths for the wellbeing of my friends. I couldn't quite tell you why, it just feels like the right thing to do; part philosophy (I believe making others happy is the fundamental reason for a person's existence), part pragmatism (I treat others as I'd like to be treated), and part poor self-esteem (I feel like my time is better spent making life easier for others than for myself because I'm not sure I'm a good person).

I'll readily help out a stranger in need, completely aware that I'll never see them again; I've lent people money I know they could never afford to pay back; and I've forgiven almost every injustice I've ever been burdened with. These things have no benefit to me other than maybe a little self-respect, which I assure you is of little use.

But for the last few months my friends, or my classmates at least, have been treating me in a way that I can only describe as neglectful. They don't notice me, try to talk to me or really make any effort to include me in anything. They'll have me around when I make an effort to get myself included, but they'll never go out of their way to find me or make me feel part of what's happening. In other words, I feel hard done by because I've always tried to be good to them and none of them are prepared to make an effort for me.

I made a rather clumsy attempt at making them feel bad about it, just so they might realise it was upsetting me because I knew they wouldn't look into it of their own volition, and it caused an argument in which a friend said I was acting like the world owed me kindness because I was nice to everyone. It cut me pretty deep, because it's the antithesis of what I've always tried to be - good for goodness's sake.

I think "Nice Guys" are jerks. They think that they're entitled to be cared about as long as they're good to others, which is at worst a reductive way of looking at people, and at best pretty unambitious - a pragmatic quid-pro-quo for the sake of personal convenience.

But I also feel really resentful because people who claim to be my friends won't make the slightest effort to keep me happy. I don't feel like that's unreasonable - expecting friends to be there to support you. I thought it was what friendship was about, looking after others and having them look after you. But by the kind of response I got, it seems like I have a different view of friendship to other people. I think I'd be more comfortable with people openly disliking me than liking me on the condition that they're never obligated to treat me with respect.

It's really hard to explain how my idea that your friends should be nice to you because you've committed yourself to their wellbeing is distinct from the "Nice Guy"'s modus operandi that people should be nice to them just because they've made an effort to be friendly.

Now I'm left wondering if all my commitment to altruism is some kind of protective fantasy I've spun around myself so I feel like less of a jerk.

tl;dr I want to be a good person; I want people to care about me; I don't know whether the combination makes me a "Nice Guy" or not.
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EVP_Glukkon's Avatar
Sounds like you have lousy friends, but I don't understand why their neglect has triggered you to question yourself to such an extent.

You sound like a genuine nice guy, so find better people to be friends with. It's not easy but they are out there. I only have a handful of friends left compared to the ammount of wankers, and people I just didn't see eye to eye with.
Posted 04-10-2015 at 10:54 PM by EVP_Glukkon

Manco's Avatar
So you treat people nicely. That’s great, but it’s only the baseline for all social interaction. Nobody owes you anything just because you’re nice.

Friendships aren’t transactional. They don’t come from just being nice to each other, they’re born from genuine attraction to one another – shared interests, appreciation of one anothers’ personalities, being able to share a joke, wanting to get to know each other more. You can’t expect to just be nice and have everyone become your pal, you need to put in more of an effort.
Posted 04-11-2015 at 05:24 AM by Manco

OddjobAbe's Avatar
I think if you're questioning yourself, that's at least a sign you're probably genuine.

I don't think it's unreasonable to feel the way you do. My approach has always been to treat people with the respect I want to be treated with, see how much respect they give back, and then match it (and more often than not, if I have to match it, it's lower). I've always felt that symbiotic relationships are the best; they're simultaneously selfish and selfless. As well as beng useful to you, they advance both parties, and I think if you're spending time with someone, and you're both improving each other's lives, that strengthens the bond between you. So in my opinion, if that's the ideal relationship, no single person should be grateful for the other - it should be mutual, otherwise I'd consider it a false friendship, which is why rather than giving people more respect than they give me, I match the respect - because then it's mutual as we're both operating on the same terms, and then I can enjoy that particular friendship for what it is.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even though the amount of respect and consideration you show your friends is probably the kind of respect and consideration everyone in the world should show everyone, it just seems to me to be a sad fact that if you don't want to be disappointed, you have to lower your expectations. (I suppose my outlook sounds a bit like resignation, but I don't think it is. I think of it as acceptance, because I still have a good time, even knowing most of my friends aren't going to be close friends)
Posted 04-11-2015 at 05:54 AM by OddjobAbe

MeechMunchie's Avatar
:
You can’t expect to just be nice and have everyone become your pal, you need to put in more of an effort.
That's the thing, though. I can do smart, and I can do funny, I can do interesting. Being nice is the thing I have to put in an effort to achieve. I'm not instinctively empathetic. Being a "Nice Guy" is what me making an effort looks like.

I value my few true friendships because they're built on trust, honesty and mutual support. Relationships without that just don't feel very valuable to me. I can share an interest or a joke with anyone, whether I've known them ten years or ten minutes. It's not exactly something that'd get you up in the mornings. Everyone says that relationships don't have any obligations, but do you really believe that? Can you honestly say that you'd call someone your friend if they never cared how you are?

:
My approach has always been to treat people with the respect I want to be treated with, see how much respect they give back, and then match it (and more often than not, if I have to match it, it's lower).
That's interesting. Being good to people is, according to many, worthless and shameful, so maybe I should just knock that on the head and stop trying to be nice altogether. I was worried that I wouldn't have any friends if I did that, but the sad reality seems to be that keeping it up isn't going to get me anywhere either. I'll still feel lonely as a shameless cunt, but at least I won't have to feel like I'm letting people down if I set the bar low.

I guess I started feeling resentful towards these people basically because I felt indebted to them. I felt inadequate, then they picked me up and showed me a good time, now I still feel inadequate, plus frustrated that I can't make them happy to have me around. I tried harder and harder because I didn't want to disappoint them, and eventually I started getting angry that it all seemed to be going to waste. The answer, I suppose, is not to expend the effort in the first place, but it's hard to let go of something that seemed so special for a while (see previous blogs).

:
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that even though the amount of respect and consideration you show your friends is probably the kind of respect and consideration everyone in the world should show everyone, it just seems to me to be a sad fact that if you don't want to be disappointed, you have to lower your expectations.
Ouch. Probably some truth in that.

The thing is, I feel like my expectations are pretty fucking low already. Just a casual "Hey, you seem upset, what's going on?" and I'd be right as rain, safe in the knowledge that someone gave a shit and therefore I'm probably not an awful person. I'm really not sure how much less I can ask of people and still find interacting with them a worthwhile experience.

I've been a loner. I can do that. I was just hoping that some day it wouldn't have to be mandatory.
Posted 04-11-2015 at 08:33 AM by MeechMunchie
Updated 04-11-2015 at 08:54 AM by MeechMunchie

OddjobAbe's Avatar
And one thing also worth mentioning is that your friends probably think about you more than you seem to imagine - if we consider the following paragraph:
:
They don't notice me, try to talk to me or really make any effort to include me in anything. They'll have me around when I make an effort to get myself included, but they'll never go out of their way to find me or make me feel part of what's happening.
It's not out of the realms of possibility that they just trust you to get yourself involved with what they're doing if you're interested. I don't know how you are in person, but if you're fairly quiet, sometimes people might not try and involve your in conversation or whatever because they just don't want to bother you if you look occupied. Obviously you aren't feeling too good about things at the minute, and just feeling that way can affect how you perceive your friends' behaviour and your own status.
Posted 04-11-2015 at 08:52 AM by OddjobAbe

MeechMunchie's Avatar
Yeah, I'm aware if the possibility. It might just be due to the fact that I'm a dude and they're mainly girls; they expect me to be zero-maintainance as opposed to low-maintainance.

Whenever I mention that I was upset about something, they always respond with something along the lines of "Oh, we just assumed you were fine", to which my only real response is "... Why? You don't assume that of anyone else."
Posted 04-11-2015 at 08:57 AM by MeechMunchie

MA's Avatar
Mate, you're definitely a good person, and feeling like people should be nice to you because you're nice to them doesn't make you fake or a "nice guy", it just makes you a genuine nice guy. If I could I would hug you right now because you don't realize how hard you are on yourself. Ever heard the expression "you're your own worst enemy"? Well, that applies right now. Like oddjob said, the fact you're questioning your own actions and, through that, are beating yourself up, proves you're worried about being fake and self-centered when a genuine fake and self-centered person wouldn't be worried about that. They'd be more worried about why the world owes them so much.

What I'm trying to say is I love you like a brother and you have nothing to worry about concerning your own character. You are a good person. If you wasn't I wouldn't have said all of this.

Oh, and sometimes friends can act worse than enemies, but unfortunately that's just the way it goes sometimes. Shit, I know, but some people get too wrapped up in their own lives and accidentally neglect friends who genuinely care about them.

Seriously, if anything happened to you or STM, and a few other characters here, I would be so upset. We really need to meet up. <3
Posted 04-15-2015 at 06:31 AM by MA

MeechMunchie's Avatar
Sorry bud, too late. Over the last few days I kept falling and eventually ended up asking myself why I even exist. Again. Then I had to go around asking friends and strangers questions with no real answer, cutting myself off from humanity and frantically having arguments with myself. Again. The good news is I've actually written it all down this time, so I at least have some record of what philosophies don't work for me.

Still, if you've got some watertight logical argument that proves that human life has inherent value, I'd like to hear it. I'm currently operating on the basis that even though everything I've observed to date suggests it doesn't, it's humanly impossible for me to know everything, so I should keep living in case something proves me wrong. I doubt it will, but hey. You can't see your own eye, maybe it's impossible for a human to percieve their own perceptual limitations.

I don't think I'll ever be quite content without some kind of meaningful resolution to that, but I think that as long as I keep putting the time into consciously pursuing that resolution, I might be able to justify my own happiness as a facilitator of that. Even if that means cracking open some dull philosophy books occasionally.

They're doing a lecture on the perception of happiness from a neurological perspective down town in a couple of months. I might go.
Posted 04-15-2015 at 03:30 PM by MeechMunchie
Updated 04-15-2015 at 03:35 PM by MeechMunchie

MA's Avatar
you should go, you might teach them a few things.

no one knows what the point to our existence is. the closest i have ever gotten to knowing that was when Joe said in one of my deleted blogs "The meaning of life is the important bit that comes between being born and dying in satisfaction." i think that's about as close as anyone will get.

in other words, life is what you make it. there will be ups and downs, nothing is ever plain sailing forever, but that's life my friend. life throws things at you and it's our job to dance the fandango and try to dodge everything (which is impossible too, but hey, you get XP for trying). this probably isn't what you want to hear but you are my friend and you sound really fucking depressed and that scares me, so i'm just trying to help you out and make you realize you aren't on your own in feeling this way. we're all in this together, the entire human race, none of us know how the fuck this life works exactly, and what the point is, and what the aim of the ultimate game is. none of us know, the answer is always, and probably will always be, "i dunno". so in the mean time, before we work out that ultimate question, let's just try to enjoy our existence and help each other out in order to make each others' existence worthwhile too.

i genuinely hope you're feeling better. you worry me sometimes because you're usually 'the rock' in our friendship so seeing you like this scares the shit out of me. love you loads and just talk to me if you ever get like this again. i hope we're still cool. take care, mon frère. <3
Posted 04-22-2015 at 01:08 PM by MA

 

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