Broaden OWF to other artistic games

The Iconoclast · #1 02-16-2007, 05:20 PM

If we stopped worrying about the future of content oriented art...it would soon wither and die. This isn't a matter of maturity. Like I said to snuzi...I don't tolerate acceptance. Accepting something seems too much like giving up. Anyway. So I was just about to say that though I care deeply for Oddworld, it is more because it fits into the general scheme of my concerns. I care for art, thought, and beauty in this drab existence. Fortunately, this is not limited to Oddworld. Max is right...you guys ARE insular. What about amazing stuff put out by Tim Caine such as Fallout or Arcanum? Confining myself to Oddworld doesn't seem like such an appealing idea. What about the open ended glory of Morrowind? I think we should make a Maximalist move towards perhaps...an artistically inspired game site featuring stuff about games worth mentioning. Oddworld is temporarily dead...but we don't have to die with it. In fact...we should take this oppurtunity to expand. Eh? I'm probably barking up the wrong tree though so if anyone feels offended at this proposal...don't be. it's just what it is...a proposal. I'm not here to threaten Oddworld...I perhaps like Lorne if his motives remain pure want to save what we have here. We're art appreciators damnit! Insular artistry is cosmically ironic and oxymoronic on so many levels it'd make your head spin. So...anyone with me? Max? Xavier? How 'bout a new site...for art...unless of course I got you guys totally wrong and you all are perfectly satisfied sitting by the decaying carcass of Oddworld's former glory in which case don't start flaming me again. Just say I'm wrong and I'm in the wrong place and that you're all happy smelling the foul natural gasses that said carcass is now emitting...

Cullen Heath · #2 02-16-2007, 05:28 PM

:

So...anyone with me? Max? Xavier? How 'bout a new site...for art...unless of course I got you guys totally wrong and you all are perfectly satisfied sitting by the decaying carcass of Oddworld's former glory in which case don't start flaming me again. Just say I'm wrong and I'm in the wrong place and that you're all happy smelling the foul natural gasses that said carcass is now emitting...

Nope, not gonna happen, bro. Sorry.
You got us wrong, we are all happy smelling the foul natural gasses that this place's carcass is now emitting.

The Iconoclast · #3 02-16-2007, 05:31 PM

Not to sound like a dick Cullen, but do you speak for everyone and most importantly for the moderators/founders of this corner of the information super highway?

Cullen Heath · #4 02-16-2007, 05:33 PM

Yup.
ten characters

EDIT:
By the way. The Forum has several skins, just incase you didn't know that. It doesn't have to be green/Native.

used:) · #5 02-16-2007, 05:34 PM

Woo.

That is all.

***Wil*** · #6 02-16-2007, 06:50 PM

The discussion has arisen before over whether OWF should broaden its horizons and become a discussion board for creative gaming in general. The idea was considered, I recall, fairly, but decided against. The current staff that moderate and administrate non‐off‐topic discussion don’t have enough interest in taking care of non‐Oddworld gaming discussion. They are logistical problems: what games/genres/developers qualify as on‐topic? We probably derive most of our members by specializing in Oddworld. I’m not sure that’s such a great thing, but if we do diversify, it’ll only be into other IPs created by Oddworld Inhabitants.

But: discussion of this subject would be better suited to ‘Forum Suggestions & Help’. Also, Iconoclast, please remember to use the Edit button instead of double posting.

snuzi · #7 02-16-2007, 07:22 PM

Jesus, Iconoclast, did you even think before suggesting that? This is pretty much the only forum around that is used to discuss Oddworld and anything remotely related to Oddworld. I understand that you feel that certain games should be viewed as works of art and appreciated to the fullest extent, but goddamn it, they're freaking video games! You're acting like an Aztec worshipping a sun god when you speak of them! Get a grip! Sure, they're masterpieces, but your opinion of these games is honestly overly exaggerated.

And, as Max said, which games would be deemed worthy of being a part of this "Forum of Art" of which you speak of? Games that you have taken a liking to, yes? Ones that you feel are worthy of being discussed. You fail to realize that if such a forum or website was created, that eventually, in order to be fair to all of your members, you'd have to include and discuss the games that they see as masterpieces as well. So, basically, it'll just become another gaming forum. It wouldn't work.

You're just a selfish individual who can't accept change, ya goose. You want things your way, and you can't accept the fact that certain events have caused Lorne to stray away from gaming for awhile, and that certain games just don't do well when released, no matter how much you may like them.

***Wil*** · #8 02-16-2007, 07:55 PM

Well there’s an over reaction.

I suspect this topic isn’t resolved, so allow me to transfer it to the appropriate department.

mitsur · #9 02-16-2007, 08:14 PM

It's not a question of can we expand, but how and why we should expand.

We could probably stuff this place full of artistic games until we have hundreds of active members, instead of the 20-30 we have right now. But that would kill the original reason this place was made in the first place. It was made for people who love or at least know about the unique game series that is Oddworld.

Think about it. This game is a mix of gunplay, collect-a-thons that are actually interesting, strategy, stealth, and almost every other genre of game there is.

And frankly, I can't really think of any other 'artistic' games that can compare to the spectrum of gameplay and plot that Oddworld has.

I know you are good-intentioned, Iconoclast, but there simply isn't a chance in hell this place could take on another game and still be the same.

Then there's the obvious problem of management and keeping everything in control.

If we add one game, what's to stop us from adding another? And another? And another, until we've finally made the Oddworld section obsolete and deleted. We'll have people that have no respect for the Oddworld series at all just posting in one topic, arguing about God knows what.

My final point is the obvious trouble this would cause. Sure, this place seems pretty mellow, but then again, we're an Oddworld forum. Not to say anything about the game, but almost nobody I know even knows this game series exists.

Simply put, since we're talking about an old-school game, most people wouldn't dream of coming here. Those people are obssesed only with the 'recent hits', instead of old, good games.

Plus, we'd have to get a lot more mods/admins if we wanted to stem the flood of n00bs who would come here only for a few days to bitch in a different game thread, then leave because nobody agreed with them.

[/thoughts and bottled-up anger]

snuzi · #10 02-16-2007, 08:24 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself. If we were to dedicate this forum to other games, it'd be chaotic. As mitsur said, there'd be noobs left and right, we'd need even more mod and admins, and before you know it, the Oddworld section of it might disappear forever. It'd become a shell of what it once was.

And I don't know about you, but I do not want that to happen.

moxco · #11 02-16-2007, 08:43 PM

Nor do any of us.
As for OI is a very small vidio game making company.

E'l Scrabino · #12 02-16-2007, 10:35 PM

:

It's not a question of can we expand, but how and why we should expand.

We could probably stuff this place full of artistic games until we have hundreds of active members, instead of the 20-30 we have right now. But that would kill the original reason this place was made in the first place. It was made for people who love or at least know about the unique game series that is Oddworld.

Think about it. This game is a mix of gunplay, collect-a-thons that are actually interesting, strategy, stealth, and almost every other genre of game there is.

And frankly, I can't really think of any other 'artistic' games that can compare to the spectrum of gameplay and plot that Oddworld has.

I know you are good-intentioned, Iconoclast, but there simply isn't a chance in hell this place could take on another game and still be the same.

Then there's the obvious problem of management and keeping everything in control.

If we add one game, what's to stop us from adding another? And another? And another, until we've finally made the Oddworld section obsolete and deleted. We'll have people that have no respect for the Oddworld series at all just posting in one topic, arguing about God knows what.

My final point is the obvious trouble this would cause. Sure, this place seems pretty mellow, but then again, we're an Oddworld forum. Not to say anything about the game, but almost nobody I know even knows this game series exists.

Simply put, since we're talking about an old-school game, most people wouldn't dream of coming here. Those people are obssesed only with the 'recent hits', instead of old, good games.

Plus, we'd have to get a lot more mods/admins if we wanted to stem the flood of n00bs who would come here only for a few days to bitch in a different game thread, then leave because nobody agreed with them.

[/thoughts and bottled-up anger]

Couldn't've said it better myself. Well, i probably wouldn't've said it in the first place... But Mitsur is right. Who wants hundreds of n00bs around a forum i say? No-one!

And anyway, i am the only n00b in the village

Hobo · #13 02-17-2007, 01:25 AM

:

If we stopped worrying about the future of content oriented art...it would soon wither and die. This isn't a matter of maturity. Like I said to snuzi...I don't tolerate acceptance. Accepting something seems too much like giving up. Anyway. So I was just about to say that though I care deeply for Oddworld, it is more because it fits into the general scheme of my concerns. I care for art, thought, and beauty in this drab existence. Fortunately, this is not limited to Oddworld. Max is right...you guys ARE insular. What about amazing stuff put out by Tim Caine such as Fallout or Arcanum? Confining myself to Oddworld doesn't seem like such an appealing idea. What about the open ended glory of Morrowind? I think we should make a Maximalist move towards perhaps...an artistically inspired game site featuring stuff about games worth mentioning. Oddworld is temporarily dead...but we don't have to die with it. In fact...we should take this oppurtunity to expand. Eh? I'm probably barking up the wrong tree though so if anyone feels offended at this proposal...don't be. it's just what it is...a proposal. I'm not here to threaten Oddworld...I perhaps like Lorne if his motives remain pure want to save what we have here. We're art appreciators damnit! Insular artistry is cosmically ironic and oxymoronic on so many levels it'd make your head spin. So...anyone with me? Max? Xavier? How 'bout a new site...for art...unless of course I got you guys totally wrong and you all are perfectly satisfied sitting by the decaying carcass of Oddworld's former glory in which case don't start flaming me again. Just say I'm wrong and I'm in the wrong place and that you're all happy smelling the foul natural gasses that said carcass is now emitting...

This is full of win. Fallout has some great artisticy stuff like the whole 50s retro theme. And the mutants. Natch.

Anyone who disagrees with the cool newbie will be stabbed.

Munch's Master · #14 02-17-2007, 02:39 AM

He makes a good arguement, and I must admit I'd like to see the forum become more active. But I have a very similar view to Mitsur.The question is, is compromising the site's original purpose/integirty, that is, to be a place for all Odddworld fans, in exchange for having a bigger forum with more members and most likely more dumb noobs, is it worth it? It's quality vs quantity. I'd be happy to see the forums expand and gain more activity and more variety of discussion, but not if it means the focus of the forums- Oddworld, gets lost in the shuffle, and the better/older members are pushed out in exchange for multiple ignorant fanboy noobs. It's a tough one. If we could be certain that the O in OWF would remain prominent, and the site's quality wouldn't be forgotten over forum size, I'd be happy to expand. But if this wasn't the case then no.

Jordan · #15 02-17-2007, 02:52 AM

No no no! Making this forum about another thing will totally take away the beauty of Oddworld. The n00bs would drive me to resigning from this forum!
I'm happy how this place is, I love talking about Oddworld with other people, and if this was made about another game too, the Oddworld section would die. Oddworld isn't just a game, that's why it makes this forum so unique, on unofficial Oddworld forums, they talk about it as if it was just a game, they aren't what I call real fans.
So all I'm saying is, just leave this great forum as it is, and maybe make a new one for a specific subject?

Slaveless · #16 02-17-2007, 03:24 AM

I'm cool with adding a section for other games' art. I love to look at art every day, seeing the detail, the message it wants to send, and the style used. I would love to see new art any day. Yet, I had said 'add', not replace.

This board is a little more than about talking about Oddworld. Some people here don't even post anything Oddworld related anymore. Others are here to discuss their problems with playing the Oddworld games. Who will be there when the forum isn't about Oddworld anymore? And does that mean I can no longer write stories about Oddworld anymore? Some people's purpose here is not to just talk about Oddworld, but to write their troubles, their inspirations, and their art. Get rid of that, and I find myself going here less and less.

So, go ahead, if I leave, that doesn't stop you. I'm just saying, don't think General Oddworld Discussion is all of what this forum is about.

Arxryl · #17 02-17-2007, 06:19 AM

Hm... soome pretty good points were raised, and good arguements were given.

On my behalf, I'd say that, like slaveless, we might add another section, but ultimately we already have a section to talk about non-oddworld gaming. In fact, it is called, non-oddworld gaming.
Yes, there are other games out there that are very respectable, and should be talked about, but expanding Oddworld Forums to do so would be a little... awkward for lack of a better word.

Like other's have posted before me, if this site was turned to more than oddworld, it would lose it's luster and originality. Besides, there are other gaming forums that would rather us not take thier jobs.

And it may seem dead, and rotting, but when Citizen Seige, and all of the other oddworld movies/other media come out, this place will be lively again and almost certainly thriving more than it is now.

As to sum up my side of this discussion, Change is good, but only if it is in the right direction.

used:) · #18 02-17-2007, 06:24 AM

Hmmmm, well, this may sound silly, but I feel a kind of annexed forum for such a purpose would be a great idea. It wouldn't get as much activity as this one, so we can keep the programing basic. This is, I'm afraid, the Oddworld forums so it really should remain mainly devoted to Oddworld, but you are definately correct when you say that Oddworld is in a pool of many other games that have been made with great artisitic care so I feel a new small board/gallery for this aspect would be great. I'm not talking about a subforum, I'm talking about another forums/gallery to praise the great artistic style in some games.

And Hobo's right, a lot of you really suck ass right now. I don't feel I need to mention who.

Hobo · #19 02-17-2007, 08:21 AM

:

Some people here don't even post anything Oddworld related anymore.

You mean some people actually post in Zulag 1? Wow that's news to me.

SeaRex · #20 02-17-2007, 11:02 AM

I agree that something must be done to expand the forums if we are to continue growing. I agreed with the notion when it was first suggested, and I agree with it now. With no new OW games and very little news about Citizen Siege, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever break out of the quagmire of mediocre discussion and dwindling membership that we have now... unless, of course, we broaden our horizons.

Quite frankly, I'd love to see our primary focus broadened to DoubleFine as well as OWI, and perhaps another respectable and innovative company. And I honestly haven't heard any arguments so far that are good enough reasons to stay with OWI alone.

Well, except for one: AbeBabe owns the site, so any final decisions ultimately belong to her. Besides that, I see no reason for us to stubbornly cling to this relatively inactive company.

skillya_glowi · #21 02-17-2007, 02:25 PM

My opinion:

Um...No. Is Oddworld not enough or something? Isn't Oddworld more than just art for which you claim to care so much? I don't believe what I'm seeing in this thread. What happened to the Oddworld Forums that were a community of Oddworld fans?

Oddworld is more than a videogame. The company may be inactive, or they may be working on things other than Oddworld, but there are the things they've done already. I believe they're enough to keep us together, at least those of us that aren't impatient and really trust in Oddworld and its capacity.

Just doing this for expansion's sake would change the forums forever, and in my opinion, not for the better. I'm serious, if the OWF were 'expanded' to other games, I'm leaving. I know that's not an effectual threat, or a threat at all. I'm just saying that that's what I'll do, since I'll be faced with a bunch of people that don't give a fuck about Oddworld but are for some reason here, on the Oddworld forums.
The Non-Oddworld gaming is enough.

/my opinion.

Seriously, this thread stabs me in the heart every time I look at it.

snuzi · #22 02-17-2007, 03:43 PM

I'd leave as well. In my opinion, there's no point in staying on an Oddworld forum that is more dedicated to things that aren't related to Oddworld. It's an insult.

If worse comes to worst, and this place does become a sanctuary to not only Oddworld games, but whatever other games people can think of, I'll simply leave, and create a new Oddworld forum, for those people who would be as hurt by the change as I would be. One that won't change simply to accommodate other people's video games interests.

SeaRex · #23 02-17-2007, 03:45 PM

:

What happened to the Oddworld Forums that were a community of Oddworld fans?

I'll tell you what happened. OWI released Munch's Odyssey, then released a game that was actually decent, then basically disbanded, thus destroying any chance this forum had of receiving an influx of competent members.

:

...since I'll be faced with a bunch of people that don't give a fuck about Oddworld but are for some reason here, on the Oddworld forums.

Too late. Already happened.

And really now, what the fuck is the problem with expanding? It's not like anyone is saying "Oh, screw OW. We're just not going to have anything to do with them anymore;" it would just be a matter of adding (not subtracting) topics for discussion. Broadening our discussions will attract an entirely new audience that could appreciate the work that OWI did in its prime, while bringing an entirely new opinions, values, and viewpoints to the forums.

But what I really don't understand is where this "elitist prick" attitude that some of you are taking on, as if we're just this huge nexus for professional discussion or something. I assure you, an expansion would never take away from such riveting topics as "How does Abe breath?" and "Funny Oddworld screenshots."

I'll just summarize with this: rabid fanboyism will only get a community so far. Without any significant contribution from the company in question, the community will grow increasingly vapid, and above all, quite boring. Trust me. Give it time. You'll all lose interest eventually.

***Alcar*** · #24 02-17-2007, 04:03 PM

The only shifting the Oddworld Forums will do, is shifting to accommodate for Oddworld Inhabitants' soon-to-be diversified IPs.

However, that doesn't mean we couldn't open up another forum for such artistic games. The idea does appeal, but what about the logistics of it. Where would it be hosted, how would you fund the hosting, how would you fund the domain name (without a domain name, no website let alone forum stands a chance of growing). Would you get crappy free forum software, or paid-for quality software.

Alcar...

The Iconoclast · #25 02-17-2007, 04:22 PM

No buddy...Oddworld is not enough. At least not for me. This is the disparity I keep seeing and trying to bring to light. It's why I constantly feel I'm in the wrong place. I have plenty of suggestions...I don't just make half assed proposals. The only issue was if it CAN be done...if we have sufficient management opportunities. Now, I knew the question of Oddworld's integrity would come into play and feel stupid at not having adressed it immediately. The truth is...it's integrity will and always has been determined by the loyalty of its fans. I just feel we can't accomplish enough staying in this tiny corner. Also I'm glad someone took my side for a change...especially in regards to Fallout...thanks a bunch! I figure we can make a compromise that favors maintaining the full integrity of this Odd Universe. I figure it's all a matter of implementation. If we properly construct a site we can satisfy expansion and an overall art revival as well as keeping Oddworld alive in our hearts. More importantly...all those newbs are potential friends of Oddworld. Maybe they never had a chance to be exposed to Oddworld (especially Abe's Odysee/Exodus). I know I've only been saying vague shit like "proper implementation". So here's some tangible detail that can be used. We could have a title like "Oddities, Art, and Kreation". The beauty of it is that our Acronym would be Oak...needless to say the Oak tree has billions of applicable symbols that it's associated with. Rebirth, growth, strength, etc. Our "flavor text" could be something like:
Through the light of Odd we are slain,
Shed our gray skins and rejoin the plain
Wreathed in beauty and fire to show
The resplendance of art the odd know

damn im good!...lemme just give you a little breakdown for those that don't understand. It ties in about a thousand ideas and most importantly the whole keeping the Integirty of oddworld thing. the first to lines are about us...through the light of the odd...and the art we see...we've died as regular people...as products of society that care no more than machines do for beauty and art and content...so we've come back (minus our gray...product of society skins...to show the non-weirdos the beauty that we have)...simple...elegant...its perfect. As for the actual forum...well...we could have a main hub for all the games in our roster. We are only concerning ourselves with games by the way....its hard enough to spread out that much without bringing in other art and bs. And anyway...our games will bring in enoug interesting people. First on our agenda...Fallout. Maybe the mods can make contact with "No Mutants Allowed" which is like the premier fan site for Fallout people....it's in the same boat as Oddworld Forums...not that many people anymore. Ok...wait. Um...we should get a general consensus from everyone here about the games we feel are artistic. here's my list...in order...with brief explanations.
Fallout...my fave...free roaming...expansive...like any GOOD ART...it captures some elements of what it means ot be human
Phantom Dust...this here is a paragon of originality if anyone here has even heard of it...the story if u can follow through with it is like looking at some twisted view of creation
The Elderscrolls Series (Morrowind, Oblivion)...unparalleled freedom...its rare that a game strays so far from linearity as to abandon it completely
Beyond Good and Evil...a monstrously overlooked title...holy crap I love this one...it's in the same boat as Stranger's Wrath....critically acclaimed...all the reviewer's loved it...but no publicity led to no sales....this game is something else...a ****ing masterpiece
Here is where I would list real RPG's like Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment....but those games were damn popular enough...they don't need our help...but we could include them anyway
Here we go....Psychonauts and Grim Fandango (especially grim fandango)...these are Tim Shaeffer's masterworks...Grim Fandango is the closest a game can get to being a film noir and Psychonauts is just so damn original and entertaining...ok maybe its not THAT original but still...pretty damn original...and Grim Fandango....oooo baby
The Legacy of Kain series...I'm kinda mixxed on this one...it TRIES to be an action game...but it has so much MORE going for it...especially in its last game "Defiance" which had such a well written story and such an imaginative world...this game made me question the idea of fate for weeks until I developed a working theory to put my mind at ease
I think thats about it...there are a few bit titles like Panzer Dragoon Orta and Otogi(which I hated playing but loved looking at just for that incredibly realized japanese style of animation...no not Anime) but those are more honorable mention type games...so yea...thats it. Sorry my grammar and attention to punctuation nose dived. I just had a lot of thoughts I had to get out here so i couldn't account for grammatical conventions. So ya...there...we've got a title...a motto...as for the structure...seems simple enough....a central site linking the different games and their respective forums...but then again i don't know to much about site management or what goes into a site...so pardon my ignorance

anyway...thats my ....humble...proposal

used:) · #26 02-17-2007, 04:27 PM

This guy's drawn the blueprints. All you peoples have to do is apply action.

The Iconoclast · #27 02-17-2007, 04:33 PM

Sorry but this necessitates an extra post to thank all the people standing by me. I wanted to say behind me...but that seems like an anti artistic statement. We're here for unity...not claims at leadership.

Thank you SeaRex for sticking up for DoubleFine
Thank you Hobo for acknowledging Fallout
F you skillya_glowi and snuzi for being crazed d*ckless fanboys who probably forgot why you're here in the first place...of course maybe it's just me and my failure to understand this strictly monogomous relationship with oddworld...but the truth is...if you put some thought and CARE into this...you'd see how much the Oddworld community would benefit...you two and Moxco sound like you're 80 year insular men who can't concieve of any change and can't see past their noses...why don't you want to open up Oddworld to new people? If it hadn't been for an elementary school friend, I'd never have even known what oddworld was. Wow...this is like a lesson for myself as a pseudo philosopher. I should patiently and willingly share the light of my torch...too bad I don't have any patience

Rex Tirano · #28 02-17-2007, 04:34 PM

:

No buddy...Oddworld is not enough. At least not for me. This is the disparity I keep seeing and trying to bring to light. It's why I constantly feel I'm in the wrong place.

You've been here all of... What? 2 days?

In my opinion this is the Oddworld forums, where people talk about Oddworld. There are thousands of other gaming forums, but this is the only one about OW.

We have a Non-Oddworld Gaming Forum which is popular, and I think this is the way it should stay.

- Rexy

The Iconoclast · #29 02-17-2007, 04:35 PM

Also...I just used up an hour, out of concern for the continuing legacy of oddworld, which I could've used trying to defeat the black dragon in baldur's gate 2. I hope this says something!!!!!! becuz i loves my badlur's gate 2!!! Certainly the story just lost like 80 percent of its appeal after those damn elves explained the cause of everything...i was hoping for some deep rooted psychological shit....oh well

I KNOW this is the OW...but why would expanding draw people away from it? I already explained how my compromise would work and FAVOR oddworld god damnit. You think snuzi gonna say...hey....here's a forum for [insert obscure game]...i think I'll abandon oddworld and go there

no...if people see oddworld next to their favorite games...maybe they'll give it a look...if i saw someone speaking of oddworld in the same vein as fallout....i sure as shit would look into it...there are people like us out there...we just gotta rally them.....fallout and i go way back....i started looking around for similar games...and in a certain forum i saw a discussion relating fallout to other great games and i decided to take a look....i was rewarded with gems like arcanum...baldur's gate...etc.....also, after i bought the massively hyped psychonauts and saw some tim shaeffer stuff on forums and websites....i got into grim fandango....u see what im getting it?

***Alcar*** · #30 02-17-2007, 04:51 PM

I don't think you understand. As long as I am in control here, we will remain the Oddworld Forums. That is the heart of our community, and I have faith that Oddworld Inhabitants will make a comeback with their Citizen Siege IP.

I don't mind starting a separate forum for artistic games, but our Non-Oddworld Gaming sub-forum is as far as the OWF will go to accommodate other games.

Provide me with reasonable logistics of starting a new forum (of which I listed in my previous post) and I'll see what I think. Are you going to personally fund this new forum, Iconoclast?

Alcar...