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Havoc · #91 05-24-2011, 07:45 AM

Because the evil masters only want calm, obedient sheep that do whatever they are told. Thus anyone stupid enough to follow a book is deemed acceptable and those who ask questions are thrown into the fiery pits of hell.

That sounds like a plausible theory actually.

Rex Tirano · #92 05-24-2011, 08:56 AM

Harold Camping has now moved the date of the end of the world to October 21. He felt so terrible that his prediction wasn't right on Saturday that he ran away to a motel with his wife for a night.

I don't really understand the lack of free will in heaven? So people would become almost like robots? And you would be happy because God would make you happy, rather than because you were doing things or experiencing things that made you happy?

- Rexy

STM · #93 05-24-2011, 09:50 AM

Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

Rex Tirano · #94 05-24-2011, 10:24 AM

So is it a similar situation if you go to hell then? Like you got through the fiery pits of hell, etc. But you have no free will?

Or is that also an area of haziness and limited knowledge?

- Rexy

STM · #95 05-24-2011, 10:39 AM

Well, we think that there is a lack of free will in Hell because of what we can put into context from religious writings, very little is explained about Heaven, (maybe they don't want to ruin the surprise for us?) but I expect you have a modicum of self control in Hell because it makes the torment that much worse, and I suppose you'd have to know what you'd done to deserve such pain...

Bullet Magnet · #96 05-24-2011, 10:49 AM

Revelations 4

Wings of Fire · #97 05-24-2011, 10:55 AM

:

Revelations 4

Disputed canon.

STM · #98 05-24-2011, 10:59 AM

What does that have to do with jack all?

Havoc · #99 05-24-2011, 11:08 AM

:

Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

So what if heaven is worse than hell?

Manco · #**100** 05-24-2011, 11:59 AM

:

Why would it have physical pleasures? You won't have a physical body. You'll be a being of pure spirit.

Pretty raw deal there if you ask me, the pleasures of the flesh are pretty great.

***Nate*** · #**101** 05-24-2011, 11:41 PM

:

Oy vey, we don't now. There's no information on what happens in Heaven...none. Not any. 0% info. We don't have to worry about it because it's not something we have to worry about till we die, and if it does happen, we won't know any different so meh.

We don't know anything definitively, but there sure are plenty of opinions. See the video below.

:

Because without it we wouldn't be us. What's the point of being a person who earns paradise if you're no longer that person when you get there? They may as well have just cut out the living bit.

Well, that's the nub of the issue; if you accept the concept of heaven, that implies the existence of the soul. If you accept the existence of the soul, that implies that the soul existed before you were born and will exist after you die.

Some might say that the soul is the manifestation of the mind and that everything we think and feel is what our soul is thinking and feeling. Others (and this is what many Jewish scholars suggest) say that the soul resides in the physical body, but that our existence and personality is made up of many drives and pressures, of which the soul is only one. If that sounds wierd to you, consider this: the soul, as an entity of pure, righteous spirit, knows definitively what is right and what is wrong. Meanwhile, we as people aren't always sure what is the right path to choose and we sometimes even consciously choose to follow the wrong path. So the idea is that what we percieve as our mind and our personality is actually a base, worldy construct that lies on top of - and distracts from - our spiritual self.

So, ultimately, the concept I've been arguing is that death strips away the earthly personality and the soul that has been riding within us all this time gets its just rewards. But, as a soul and nothing more, its desires are those of ethereal beings, not of our human drives.

Here is an interesting interview with an author of a book about Heaven. Her description of Dante's Paradiso is actually quite close to what I've heard from Jewish speakers about heaven.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...10/lisa-miller

Sekto Springs · #**102** 05-25-2011, 12:11 AM

:

So, ultimately, the concept I've been arguing is that death strips away the earthly personality and the soul that has been riding within us all this time gets its just rewards. But, as a soul and nothing more, its desires are those of ethereal beings, not of our human drives.

Taking that into consideration, wouldn't most souls be identical? If we are made unique by our flaws and worldly values and our spiritual self is just an inscrutable, moral compass that points to "good".

***Nate*** · #**103** 05-25-2011, 02:19 AM

Good point. Possibly. That's beyond anything I've ever heard any opinions on though.

STM · #**104** 05-25-2011, 04:22 AM

That video is unavailable in the UK...what did it say?

DarkHoodness · #**105** 05-25-2011, 06:02 AM

Oh, people might be interested in this if you have an hour and live in the UK - A lot of arguments in this programme reflect those that were discussed here on this forum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._4_Episode_17/ (available until Sunday, May 29th 2011)