What Breeds Racial Intolerance?

[STM]

Guyz let's just be done with it and get rid of all the brown people amirite? That'll make all our problems go away!

[MeechMunchie]

Scapegoating, in this case, is a consequence of an action. Not the other way around. No, I can not speak for other countries but I do follow international news. And that tells me that right wing parties are gaining a massive following all over western Europe, that's no coincidence.

You're getting this backwards - it's those parties that put racist ideology into people's heads, not existing racism putting them in power.* I mean, as a racist party, it's in your interests to establish a feedback loop.

I don't believe the man in the street would give a toss about immigrants if there weren't a dozen tabloid newspapers and extremist parties telling him they were the spawn of Satan. Like Nate said, they're profiting off people's desire for simple solutions.

*One need only look at the British National Party's electoral performance to see that voter support for institutional racism is usually pretty low.

I'm not being racist, I'm being realistic. Here's why I don't like Moroccans. I think Moroccans are destroying my country.

'Nuff said.

Criminal intent is not endemic to a certain ethnicity. I can't speak for the Netherlands (not so hard, right?), but if the average Dutchman dismisses Moroccans as flippantly as you do, it's not very surprising that they're turning to crime.

[OANST]

Oh, Havoc. Sometimes I feel bad for the way you get treated here. But then you post more, and I don't.

[MA]

you're going soft. i've never felt guilty for being a prick to that prick.

[Havoc]

but if the average Dutchman dismisses Moroccans as flippantly as you do, it's not very surprising that they're turning to crime.

Wait wait, so you're actually saying that minorities turn to crime to confirm the stereotype people have about them? The 'racist' parties only started popping up in the last 10 years or so. The actual problem I'm talking about pre-dates them by at least another 10 years. Also, to make this very clear; I'm not saying that every single person in this ethnic group is the same. I'm saying there's a very large group that's causing a lot of trouble and that has absolutely nothing to do with racism. The fact that there are people, like you, who claim that it IS racism is very a very dangerous thing.

Look, I can't explain this properly. Unless you've seen the type of stuff I'm talking about first hand I don't expect you to really understand without labeling it as simple dumb racism. If you could see it, you'd probably get fed up with it just as quickly as the majority of the Dutch inhabitants.

Personally, with my own eyes, I've witnessed over the years:

- Some assholes trying to put out a cigarette on me. Because I happened to sit near them on the bus. Laughing their heads off because it was oh so funny.

- A large group intimidating and disrespecting girls to the point of calling them names, grabbing them and spitting in their faces when the girls tell them to fuck off. Happens way, way, way too often all over the country.

- Being threatened, intimidated, shoved or hit for doing my job with a camera on my shoulder, which wasn't even turned on. Also happens way too often.

- A group getting thrown out of a bar or club for being obnoxious and then picking a fight with the bouncer. Happens every single weekend.

- A complete lack of respect to police offers and other emergency services. I've seen guys spit and curse at police officers on multiple occasions. I've seen ambulances pull up to an accident only for a group of bystanders to start rioting, threatening and abusing the paramedics. I've seen firefighters pull up to a car fire only to have the bystanders, who actually lit the fucking fire, threaten and abuse the firemen. The the point where they had to be hospitalized.

In the media I've seen countless (literally dozens in the last 12 months) reports of random people being beaten for looking at a group the wrong way or saying something when they're out causing trouble.

Not saying that other groups of teenagers are a bunch of angels. But this particular group is causing so much trouble, is so overly aggressive and intimidating, that cities and towns are getting special funds from the government to deal with this in particular. Up to 32 million euro was spent on this in the past few years. And you're trying to tell me that this is a problem that either doesn't exist or is caused by the media?

I would love nothing more than to show you a couple of YouTube videos in which the problems are described in detail. They could probably paint a better picture than I ever could. Unfortunately they're all Dutch, so I doubt they would be of much use to you.

Point of this rant being; pulling a racism card is easy. Too easy. There are actually problems with certain specific groups of people. In my country, in your country, in every country. And if daring to call out those problems by name is deemed racist nothing will ever be solved, and no-one will ever dare call out problems again in fear of being called a racist.

[MA]

tl;dr lmao

[OANST]

Because economics, and distrust of minorities (which makes it harder for minorities to succeed) has nothing to do with it.

[MA]

well obviously white boy.

[MeechMunchie]

Wait wait, so you're actually saying that minorities turn to crime to confirm the stereotype people have about them?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Bullet Magnet, could you dig out that study they did on a bunch of schoolkids? The one where they told them that people with certain eye colours were objectively superior? The one that demonstrably proved that if you treat a group of people like shit, they will rapidly come to act like shit?

Even without that phenomenon, let me ask you this: If no-one's going to hire a filthy Moroccan, how exactly are they supposed to make money? And don't say they should go back to Morocco - poverty is probably why they left in the first place.

The 'racist' parties only started popping up in the last 10 years or so.

Extremist parties have existed for as long as democracy has. Like Nate said, it's just the recent onset of Hard Times that has made people more sympathetic to them.

The actual problem I'm talking about pre-dates them by at least another 10 years

People are not problems. Problems are problems.

Also, to make this very clear; I'm not saying that every single person in this ethnic group is the same.

Fun fact: In the early days of the Holocaust, more moderate Nazis insisted that they were only exterminating the "bad" Jews.

I'm saying there's a very large group that's causing a lot of trouble and that has absolutely nothing to do with racsim. The fact that there are people, like you, who claim that it is racism is very a very dangerous thing.

It has everything to do with racism, and the dehumanising notion that some ethnic groups are inherently more inclined towards destructive behaivour is, in terms of death count, probably the single most dangerous idea in history. Every instance of genocide, many cases of murder and several wars were set in motion when one group of people decided another (usually a different colour) were up to no good.

I don't expect you to really understand without labeling it as simple dumb racism.

"I'm not racist, but everything I'm about to say could be very easily construed as racism."

... Seems legit.

If you could see it, you'd probably get fed up with it just as quickly as the majority of the Dutch inhabitants.

Oh, no no no. I'm not for a second saying that it doesn't suck to get mugged by a Moroccan. I'm just saying that assuming that he mugged you because he was Moroccan is really really really reallly really fucking stupid.

I have a beard, and like cheese. The beard does not infer that I like cheese.

Personally, with my own eyes, I've witnessed over the years:

Lots of things that validate my decision to not like Moroccans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Not saying that other groups of teenagers are a bunch of angels.

I don't think there's anyone here who believed that you hated Moroccan teenagers because they were teenagers.

But this particular group is causing so much trouble, is so overly aggressive and intimidating, that cities and towns are getting special funds from the government to deal with this in particular. Up to 32 million euro was spent on this in the past few years. And you're trying to tell me that this is a problem that either doesn't exist or is caused by the media?

Well, the problem is caused by incredibly rich people who aren't keen to pay for the solutions to widespread problems, so they'd rather use their cash to direct public frustrations towards someone who can't fight back (e.g. poverty-stricken Moroccan immigrants) via political lobbying and, yes, popular media.

Again, I'm not saying that the Moroccan immigrants are nice. They sound like cunts. What I'm saying is that people like you are making them cunts.

I would love nothing more than to show you a couple of YouTube videos in which the problems are described in detail. They could probably paint a better picture than I ever could. Unfortunately they're all Dutch, so I doubt they would be of much use to you.

If they hold the same opinions as you, I won't mourn the loss.

Point of this rant being; pulling a racism card is easy.

Great! Can I consider you a convert, then?

Too easy.

Oh.

There actually are problems with Moroccans. In the Netherlands, possibly in your country, maybe in every country. And if daring to blame Moroccans by name is deemed racist nothing will ever be solved, and no-one will ever dare to blame Moroccans again, in fear of being called a racist.

'Nuff said.

[MA]

you're talking to an idiot, you idiot.

[Slog Bait]

I hate it when people do shit and the majority of the people who do shit fit under an ethnic label because then people only focus on that majority and not people doing it in general

Like seriously what the fuck is that shit that happens with every other label in the universe too and it's fucking horrible and why every time socially we take a step forward we take a million and one steps backwards

[STM]

Apparently 40% of Morroccans have landed themselves in trouble with the police in the Netherlands. There's a whole load of problems with that and it's both parties' fault.

[Bullet Magnet]

Then 60% haven't, which means that the only reason to call them criminals is for having Moroccan origins or ancestry.

[STM]

I'm not saying all Moroccans are criminals. I'm saying 40% are. It's still a problem and it's not racist to point that out. I'm also saying that your blind if you don't think there's a problem there that needs solving.

[Bullet Magnet]

Obviously there is, but figuring out the true problem(s) probably requires more thought, data and intellect than the average tabloid "journalist" is able to bring to bear.

[OANST]

Okay.......

[Bullet Magnet]

If it's expressible as an easily understood soundbite then it is almost certainly wrong. You can't model the nuance and complex causal associations of modern or historical societies that way, much less successfully engineer them to be better.

[MeechMunchie]

This is what happens if we don't let BM spar it out.

[OANST]

If it's expressible as an easily understood soundbite then it is almost certainly wrong. You can't model the nuance and complex causal associations of modern or historical societies that way, much less successfully engineer them to be better.

Okay.....

I'm sure that eventually BM will tell us all what his point is. I know I'm waiting with baited breath.

[Bullet Magnet]

The point is, if the first answer to a social problem that everyone seems to think of was the right one, then we wouldn't have social problems any more. Instead we get the same cognitive deficiencies leading the way in human thought and a very predictable pattern of behaviour that leads us round and round the same nightmare that has plagued humanity since year dot.

There's this strange feature of human thought where we approach simple problems such as a puzzle game or minor life obstacle with thought and focus as we try to understand the problem as then devise a solution. But when faced with truly difficult problems, with undefined complexities and incomplete data, problems that may well have stood for some time, we try to solve them straight away. We start thinking in terms of solutions immediately, rather that thinking about the problem instead, and, you know, maybe studying it to fix the obvious missing data problem. Which seems like both a sane approach and a doable one. And the harder the problem is, the more likely we are to exhibit this behaviour. This has been empirically demonstrated by cognitive science.

And if your "solution" is easily comprehended, ie, swiftly pinning blame on an easily recognisable and alienable minority, so much the better. That's the kind of idea that gets traction in people's minds. It's simple enough to be understood without any kind of work or thought at all!

[MeechMunchie]

I think what OANST is asking is why you're arguing with people who already agree with you.

The answer being that Havoc gave up faster than we were expecting.

[Holy Sock]

It was a reply to STM's comments I think.

[OANST]

I think what OANST is asking is why you're arguing with people who already agree with you.

The answer being that Havoc gave up faster than we were expecting.

Yup.

Also, from where I'm sitting, BM is part of the problem because he would like to ignore data that doesn't speak to his world view just like the other side of the aisle does. Yes, he takes the kinder approach, but both extremes are useless. The answers lie somewhere in the middle.

[STM]

Yeah BM you kinda just said--in an unnecessarily elaborate manner--the same thing I was suggesting with my posts. I don't really understand what your trying to achieve? I said, "I'm also saying that your blind if you don't think there's a problem there that needs solving." I didn't suggest how to solve the problem, just that there was something to be looked into. Earlier on I said that society, as well as the Moroccans are to blame.

[Holy Sock]

I think he had a problem with your Moroccan statistic. That stating that 40% of Moroccans are criminals in the Netherlands, and thus Moroccans are partly to blame, ignores "the true problem(s)" which "probably requires more thought, data and intellect than the average tabloid 'journalist' is able to bring to bear." i.e. 40% of Moroccans in the Netherlands are criminals.

I'm not really weighing in here, or saying he's right (and my assessment of his argument may be off base), but that's what I thought he was getting at.

[Bullet Magnet]

Actually I disagree that true answers may be found in the middle of two conflicting views. One of those may be wrong, and it may also be the case that both views are astounding wrong and that the true answer lies some way away down a fantastic tangent. What I'm wondering is whether we are asking the right questions. We started this particular issue by focusing on Moroccans, which immediately constrained the issue, and perhaps unjustifiably so. What are the crime rates of other groups? What are the causes of such criminal activity? Are the causes common to all or many groups? And if it does turn out that those circumstances are affecting Moroccans disproportionately, why is that, and what can be done about it?

See, if we let ourselves go too far down the road before stepping back and evaluating our priorities, then the issue does become one about social prejudices. Which, to be fair, was the original discussion anyway. But while we're on this one, clearly the only purpose of discussing an issue like this is to eventually find a resolution, ie cut those crime rates and any other injustices that may be hiding there. But if we start assigning blame instead of properly studying the issue then prejudices crop up and it becomes a fight between draconian measures targeting the blamed group and liberal attitudes that don't want to go along with it. And then we've already lost sight of the original purpose. Perhaps Moroccans really are to blame. But if blaming them does not solve the issue, or causes further problems, then the utility of blaming them is at best zero. If it make it worse then it has negative utility, which makes it a fucking stupid thing to do. So I'm asking: having we (which does not mean just us here on the boards) actually done anything even like all the work required to truly understand the problem so it might actually be solved at some point? Put that way, the answer is immediately obvious.

Put yet another way: are the tabloids helping?

[OANST]

But it's impossible to have that conversation because you just start freaking out and waiving your arms around, yelling that everyone hasn't asked the right question yet. Well, there has to be a starting point to every dialogue. Ask the questions. No one has an issue with that. What people have an issue with is you pretentiously telling us that we don't know how to think coherently when clearly you don't have any kind of grasp on how conversations work. They grow and expand. Don't expect full disclosure of all aspects of the topic within the first few minutes. And don't think that what you're doing is smart. It isn't.

[MeechMunchie]

I genuinely think BM was expecting Havoc to stick around and now he's struggling to find an outlet for his liberalism.

[Bullet Magnet]

In my experience most political conversations either rocket through topics at a pace faster than I can keep up with and contribute to, or they end with everyone reaching the conclusions they wanted to reach from the start without benefiting from any exchange in ideas whatsoever. The ones that actually show promise lock themselves into a paradigm of thought by the phrasing or object of the question that can often preclude reaching an actual answer. When I spot that and question our approach, I get the filthiest looks. A conversation can't grow and expand backwards without pointing that out, which you need to do to get the right answer if one or more of your assumptions are wrong, and we won't know that without examining them. It's like begging the question, when the conversation starts out some way down a particular line of enquiry before we're necessarily justified in doing so. You're basically having your conversations in the wrong order by skipping some important ones, which, had they been had, may not have even lead to the quite one we were having. And if that's the case, we can't hope to achieve a valid conclusion with the one we were having, and so participating in it is even more futile than it already appears.

It's a matter of epistemology. It doesn't only apply to conversations, which are really just thinking out loud, except that other people can join in.

[MeechMunchie]

My epistemological analysis of the situation is that nobody ever learned anything talking to Havoc.