A Civil discussion about Religion

[STM]

I imagine therefore, you've never heard of Pliny the Younger? Nor Suetonius, Tacitus or Josephus. Before you make yourself out to be a bit of a short sighted arrogant character, do a little background research. There is evidence of the life of Christ, it's pretty hard evidence but a good proportion of it is from around a century after Jesus' time, therefore some historians believe that it may or may not have been lost in translation. However that does not mean there is 'no' evidence. I can quote some if you like.

Edit: Hell, Nero actually burnt Christians in AD 64, just 30-40 years after Jesus' time.

[OANST]

Heard of all of them. None of them are accepted as reliable eye witness accounts.

Let me rephrase, there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever lived.

And I don't think I was being arrogant. Just honest.

Edit: Oh, and none of those people were alive during "the time of Christ".

[Phantasos]

There's a lot of philosophical discussion here about semantics, I'll just edge my story in this thread amongst all that.

Today I'm an atheist, though was brought up as a baptist, and sure there's a long gripping tale to all that, but I'll try to keep this post short-ish.

I'm quite partial to the philosophy of pantheism, and enjoy the poetic descriptions of science in philosophical Daoist texts, and in a way I find great comfort in just sitting in and experiencing nature, being thankful that such a random assortment of molecules has evolved over time to give birth to sentience. That I can experience a star-lit sky.

Whether a pantheistic approach, with this admiration of Daoist philosophy and that craving for a transcendentalistic romance with nature can be classed as 'religion' is an area I don't care to discuss, though, to me, these encompass something of a spiritualistic experience, and as an atheist I find it upsetting when the fundamentalists come along and call us cold-hearted, emotionless, unhappy people. I find great happiness in the universe around us.



There's another area I'd like to discuss as well, which is the accusations that atheists disregard religious people's texts, for example: many of such accusations come from Christians who after stating their verse and 'opinion' proceed to then label us incapble of understanding for we haven't read the Bible, as if in reading such a text one would become Christian?

Despite now being atheist, I still find religious texts enjoyable reads and have read this Bible of theirs; it's on my bookshelf next to Daoist texts; Ancient Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythologies; Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy; as well as my books on Arthurian legend, Wuxia canon and the fictional Old West.

For me the religious texts of the world are fascinating fictional ventures, and these mythologies I enjoy immersing myself within, from a purely fictional point of view. But other than that, I've grown out of believing such things could be fact.
I had the similar crushed feeling when it was revealed to me that Yahweh's magical feats were that of fiction, as I did when I began to realise that the Old West wasn't a mythical land full of gunfighters and chivalry..

I managed to separate the legend from the fact, and left it immortalised in its mythology.

[OANST]

The Old West was totally a mythical land full of gunfighters and chivalry.

[STM]

Hmm, if you were to pick a religion or pseudo-religious philosophy to live by, whether you are religious or not, what would that be? It's a question that always interested me, I imagine I would pick Buddhism.

[Wings of Fire]

I can't rate the Bible as a work of fiction, the writing style is far too dry and the message is all over the place.

Also the vast majority of the characters are one dimensional.

[Havoc]

Hmm, if you were to pick a religion or pseudo-religious philosophy to live by, whether you are religious or not, what would that be? It's a question that always interested me, I imagine I would pick Buddhism.

I'd probably scavenge bits and pieces from every religion in the world and mix it together till I have something that fits my own liking. There's no single religion or philosophy that gets everything right.

Let me rephrase, there is no credible evidence that Jesus ever lived.

I have no doubt that a person named Jesus once lived around that time. And people probably worshipped him for the things he said. Does that mean that everything he said and did was real and true? No. For all we know the Jesus they talk about was a huge fraud, getting off on all the attention.

If we sent Uri Geller back in time to that period we'd probably be talking about the word of Geller instead of the word of Christ.

[STM]

A friend made an interesting argument to me that perhaps he was bipolar. If I wasn't of faith I'd find it plausible perhaps.

[Kinto]

I am 18 years old and I'm christian. As a child, I was always taught by my mom of God, the creation of the world, and the christian faith. My dad was always atheist, didn't believe in God, in fact, he made fun of the belief calling those that did believe, "Weak-minded". It was late 2010 that my dad and I found out that my mom had been cheating on him with an imbreed douchebag (who is now my step-dad which I refuse to accept.) So my dad and I left and moved into a trailor house living in poverty. I worked, and he worked, and we made just enough money to support ourselves. During that time, my dad starting reading his bible, and became a serious christian. He read it every night, and became peaceful. He believed in the sabbath, and refused to eat pork and other unclean animals. Three months later, I came home from school to a moving truck in the front yard. My dad said he was leaving, and that I would need to either move in with my mom and that son of a bitch, or move to Mississippi and live with my aunt. He told me he was not abandoning me and said he loved me. Told me to take care of my mom, brother, and sister. He left the next day. I moved in with my mom (who had secretly got married to that family destroyer) for my brother and sister. No one knew where my dad went, no one could find him. I knew he was depressed, but never expected what had happened. On March 13, 2011. He had shot himself...

So I guess, for my dads memory, I take the christian faith to heart. I do all that he would of wanted me to do. I still question why God would do such a thing to a man that dedicated his entire life to him. But I guess that's just not my place to question. My girlfriend is a serious christian aswell, and she helps me through these times, and shows me that there really is a God. Sure the story dwelves much deeper then that, but I'm not gonna go that far.

[STM]

Man that's a tough story, can't really argue with it. Certainly you must be a pretty powerful believer to stick with God through all that.

[Jordan]

I was expecting an argument to arise from this discussion. It makes me wonder whether there will ever be a civil discussion about religion on here. I do think on here there is a very unequal balance of those who are religious and those who aren't, which often triggers an argument. It doesn't help that a lot of people on these forums are heavily opinionated either.

[skychase2rebirth]

At first, I believed in a god. Then my grandma deepthroated me with all her religious things: prayers, crucifix, church, new testament.... then I threw up, all my beliefs and my breakfast down the toilet and became an Atheist. Thanks to her ^^.

(a long time ago, I prayed to meet sexy girls... I'm 20 now and still virgin T_T)




I removed the stupid part (and kinda expected a "Cool story, bro" ;P)....

[OANST]

Well, that sure was an interesting story.

[STM]

So is the Bible.

[Manco]

There is less proof that Jesus exists but there is still proof, and proof of people existing that knew him furthers the argument. So with this established, you can begin to pick at all the miracles he worked and the sort.

I wish you would stop posting this already, this is at least the third time I’ve seen you try it.

There is no proof of Jesus' existence. None. I've said this before, but even lacking proof there probably was a person named Jesus. There just isn't any proof.

All of the gospels (except Paul, and he never met Jesus) were written at least one generation after the events they were talking about, and were not written by the people who were said to have written them. The Romans had no documents of his execution, and there are no eye witness accounts.

Thank you.

Hmm, if you were to pick a religion or pseudo-religious philosophy to live by, whether you are religious or not, what would that be? It's a question that always interested me, I imagine I would pick Buddhism.

The idea of balance, yin and yang (Taoism?) has always sounded like a neat theory, although I can’t say I know enough to make that kind of decision about it.

[JennyGenesis]

Here's a story I remember, I think I was about 8, talking to my mum about the story of Moses. I asked how Moses parted the sea and she said "Well, God helped him do it" and I remember telling her that it sounds ridiculous and that I didn't believe he parted the sea...

[STM]

I did a little research into it but I just generally love the idea of quiet meditation, a love of all things and the acceptance of all people into one body. I also like the idea that they accept other gods into their belief, I think you can for example believe in the Hindu pantheon but still be accepted into Buddhism.

I just checked OH, and actually, there is no stance on a creator because to try and understand is impossible and pointless, instead they try and reach Nirvana which is ultimate peace. I just love that.

On another note, I think I must have taken a little something from the Hindus; I believe all religions must worship the same God. Certainly the Abrahamic religions, then Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Hinduism etcetera, as long as you follow the path to God, I think we must be all going the same way, we just don't know it. This is why religions should stop fighting with each other in my opinion, especially between sects. (e.g. RC v's CofE)

[Wings of Fire]

Here's a story I remember, I think I was about 8, talking to my mum about the story of Moses. I asked how Moses parted the sea and she said "Well, God helped him do it" and I remember telling her that it sounds ridiculous and that I didn't believe he parted the sea...

Do you want a prize for showing critical thought? A little plaque maybe?

[JennyGenesis]

No need for sarcasm like that, I was simply sharing a story I think Glitch would be interested in since it relates to my childhood.

[Phantasos]

The idea of balance, yin and yang (Taoism?) has always sounded like a neat theory, although I can’t say I know enough to make that kind of decision about it.

Taoism/Daoism it's all phonetics.

Unfortunately the west has misunderstood the concept of yin/yang to an extent. It's presented everywhere as this dark vs light concept, and occasionally that light prevails over darkness. Although this does apply in the sense there exist opposing forces, the yin/yang isn't representative of two absolutes, in Aristotelian views - it's about a golden mean.

For example: Day does not turn to night in an instant, there's always degrees of light in dark, in evil there is potential for good, and even the kindest man has seeds of deceit. Things simply don't alternate wildly from one extreme to another, they evolve gradually.
The balance in the universe, whether it's physics or human morality, from a Daoist perspective, is always in a tangible state of flux, however becoming absolutist essentially will throw the laws of the universe out of sync -- stars explode, corrupt minds murder. Something along those lines.

Daoism is essentially about going with the flow of the universe and preventing excessive tampering with its natural existence, a process known as Wu Wei.

It's all pseudo-scientific business, but for a atheistic philosophy created before 'The Jesus Times', it deserves a degree of credit.

Hope I've helped you understand a little better?

If you're interested, then I highly recommend reading Laozi's ''Dao De Ching'' and Zhuangzi's eponymous collection. Laozi and Zhuangzi being the two founders of the philosophy.

[Wings of Fire]

Shame Laozi didn't actually exist.

[MeechMunchie]

I'd quite like to be Jewish, minus the God part. Beards, hats, witty banter on tap, good music and a hundred different rolled dough products.

[Wings of Fire]

But that's a culture, not a religion.

[MeechMunchie]

I thought that was what we were talking about.

[Wings of Fire]

In a religion thread?

[MeechMunchie]

I meant STM's question.

I think I'm just going to stop talking now.

[STM]

I suppose the culture is intertwined with the religion, must be hard to be Jewish but not believe in God which is fundamental to well, being a member of a religion. ;D

[Phantasos]

Shame Laozi didn't actually exist.

That it is. 'He' gets the Jesus treatment as well.

Though someone or some group of philosophers were responsible for the body of work that is the Dao De Ching, which is fine by me.

It's not as if Laozi's existence is vital to the philosophy of Daoism (though arguably to the religion of Daoism which came afterwards) , unlike this Jesus fellow and his Christians.

[STM]

Jesus told us how to live in a modern society, and unlike the Old Testament, much of, if not all of, his preachings and parables can still be incorporated into the values of how someone should live in this current age. I suppose he's key in that respect, but in the miracle side of things, if you believe that, he cleansed us of sin. I don't really know who 'us' is though, does it mean everyone, even people who had never heard of Jesus or who weren't believers in God, or just 'us' the Christians and Jews...I would have thought the latter but I don't know. Probably need to read up on that.

[Phantasos]

See, now there's a key difference between Abrahamic and Eastern thought. The first eases you into living a life you probably don't want to experience, whilst the latter argues humankind should return to nature because we're too corrupt for our own good in larger groups..