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  #31  
06-22-2015, 01:09 PM
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Being at the top of the food chain tends to be a temporary state of affairs. Something usually comes along to take the place or simply knock you off the top, or else you become the victim of your own success. We are all very aware that we subsidise our success on the back of the very environment that allows that success, which is the most sublime fuck-up I can possibly imagine.

Art and science and philosophy are all very pretty and engaging to particular kinds of minds such as my own, but the only real measure of success is that you are still here. When we judge other entities by different measures we end up with discrepancies between reality and our model of it. From one such point of view, a "successful" disease is one that causes the most death and destruction, yet when we look around we don't find too many of them. The ones we do see all the time are significantly less deadly under ordinary circumstances. The perennials: rhinovirus, influenza, Staphylococcus, E. coli etc. Now HIV, which is a masterpiece, these have successfully evaded our best efforts to wipe them out. Hell, we mustn't get rid of E. coli we need it to stay healthy!. The exceptions (like malaria) enjoy animal hosts and vectors.

The terrifying and deadly rare diseases don't become endemic for that very reason. They burn through the host, being extremely successful in the short term, but they subsidise their success on the back of their host organism so much that they kill it quickly, reducing their chances to spread further. Ebola never got a foothold in our species until a less deadly strain emerged, and it killed more people in a year than every other strain did through all human history. They, like Marburg virus and Lujo virus, are brief and passing fancies in the world of infectious diseases (DISCLAIMER: they likely still exist in their natural host organisms, to whom they are less deadly and thus more successful). Even the Plague burned itself out.

What I'm saying is, sure, we do amazing things and we value our accomplishments much more highly than the things other species do. But the means by which we do these things comes at a massive cost that renders them utterly unsustainable. We haven't been here for very long, and if we keep this up then we won't add much time onto that. A fine standard of success and notability, if all those special traits are what ultimately clobbers us before our time. We'll be like a Marburg outbreak: brief, scary, ultimately unimportant to the world at large.
thanks for taking the time out to write this, i think i understand.

:
Our evolutionary history from other species of primate is very well documented from both fossil and molecular evidence. We know where we came from, research now is all about uncovering fascinating little details and wrinkles in the story. My favourite line of evidence are the endogenous retroviruses in our genome. Ask me about it some time.
i'm too stupid to do that.

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Are we really getting into an evolution debate? There's mountains of evidence for the theory and not much evidence for anything else. Evidences available upon request.
personally i still don't believe we evolved from apes or whatever the fuck it is. i honestly believe we were always our own class of animal (different), if we weren't planted here that is. i have no evidence to back that up and you can call me stupid if you like but that's what i reckon. we were never swinging through the trees, eating bananas. DEAL WITH IT
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  #32  
06-22-2015, 01:13 PM
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No we weren't, but our ancestors were. You can see evolution happening on a microscopic scale, it's why when your doctor prescribes you antibiotics, you have to take exactly the recommended amount, otherwise they'll be able to adapt to the changes. They literally upgrade themselves like the new Cybermen download updates.
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  #33  
06-22-2015, 01:19 PM
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i'm not saying we never evolved, and that we aren't still evolving, i'm just saying i don't believe we came from apes. i think we evolved from an animal that was it's own class and nothing to do with lanky-armed tree-swingers.
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  #34  
06-22-2015, 03:00 PM
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Don't think of a monkey gradually becoming a human. Think about great apes and humans sharing a common ancestor a few million years ago. The way lots of people think about homo evolving from monkeys seems to imply that other apes would eventually evolve into modern humans.
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  #35  
06-22-2015, 03:31 PM
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Yeah, if you think the gap between us is too wide, just break it down. We're not so far from cavemen, they're not so far from flatfaced hominids, they're not so far from upright apes, and they're not so far from particularly ambitious proto-chimps.

Because you're right, hominids are a seperate group from lemurs and the like. They're just both derived from a common ancestor, and that's impossible to deny because it's also true of literally every species on earth. Go back far enough, and you'll find a forefather species that diverged into humans, slugs, beetles and sequoia trees.


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  #36  
06-22-2015, 03:47 PM
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We can't have come from any non-ape because we currently are a variety of ape. This has been very well known for a very long time. When Carl Linnaeus founded the field of taxonomy (a nested hierarchical structure for the classification of living things) he couldn't put the human species anywhere else, and he tried. This was pre-Darwin, and he likely believed in special creation (though his studies did some work eroding that assumption), he wasn't happy about it, but he saw, clearly, that every part of our anatomy is ape anatomy. We have all the same structures. We now know that we have all the same genes, in fact some of the genes that have the physical effects that set us apart are not special human genes, but rather broken versions of monkey genes. That's why, for example, we have such tiny and weak jaws: the genetics required for strong, robust jaws like other primates have are all fucked up, but that opens the way for a larger cranium.

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It does not please [you] that I've placed Man among the Anthropomorpha, perhaps because of the term 'with human form', but man learns to know himself. Let's not quibble over words. It will be the same to me whatever name we apply. But I seek from you and from the whole world a generic difference between man and simian that [follows] from the principles of Natural History. I absolutely know of none. If only someone might tell me a single one! If I would have called man a simian or vice versa, I would have brought together all the theologians against me. Perhaps I ought to have by virtue of the law of the discipline.
We are apes for the same reason that ducks are birds. "Ape" is not a different kind of animal, it is a group, a subset of old-world monkeys, which are a subset of primates, which are a subset of mammals. And the Homo genus is a subset of great ape. We can construct from comparative genetics very detailed family trees. We know that from the combined lineage of the great apes, the common ancestor of all four genera of great ape, it was the orang-utan lineage that broke away first. Then the gorilla lineage broke away in at the next fork. Then the human and chimpanzee lineages split apart. Of the various species they each gave rise to, only one human and two chimpanzee species remain. The very same evidence that proves that we evolved also proves our shared ancestry with modern non-human apes.
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  #37  
06-23-2015, 07:25 AM
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We're never gonna know the answers maaaaan.

May as well just live in idle stupidity.
I don't think of just living your life as best you can without being concerned about meaning as idle, or stupid. I think it's probably a lot less frustrating than trying to find meaning in the meaningless.
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  #38  
06-23-2015, 12:25 PM
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Don't think of a monkey gradually becoming a human. Think about great apes and humans sharing a common ancestor a few million years ago. The way lots of people think about homo evolving from monkeys seems to imply that other apes would eventually evolve into modern humans.
:
Yeah, if you think the gap between us is too wide, just break it down. We're not so far from cavemen, they're not so far from flatfaced hominids, they're not so far from upright apes, and they're not so far from particularly ambitious proto-chimps.

Because you're right, hominids are a seperate group from lemurs and the like. They're just both derived from a common ancestor, and that's impossible to deny because it's also true of literally every species on earth. Go back far enough, and you'll find a forefather species that diverged into humans, slugs, beetles and sequoia trees.
:
We can't have come from any non-ape because we currently are a variety of ape. This has been very well known for a very long time. When Carl Linnaeus founded the field of taxonomy (a nested hierarchical structure for the classification of living things) he couldn't put the human species anywhere else, and he tried. This was pre-Darwin, and he likely believed in special creation (though his studies did some work eroding that assumption), he wasn't happy about it, but he saw, clearly, that every part of our anatomy is ape anatomy. We have all the same structures. We now know that we have all the same genes, in fact some of the genes that have the physical effects that set us apart are not special human genes, but rather broken versions of monkey genes. That's why, for example, we have such tiny and weak jaws: the genetics required for strong, robust jaws like other primates have are all fucked up, but that opens the way for a larger cranium.

We are apes for the same reason that ducks are birds. "Ape" is not a different kind of animal, it is a group, a subset of old-world monkeys, which are a subset of primates, which are a subset of mammals. And the Homo genus is a subset of great ape. We can construct from comparative genetics very detailed family trees. We know that from the combined lineage of the great apes, the common ancestor of all four genera of great ape, it was the orang-utan lineage that broke away first. Then the gorilla lineage broke away in at the next fork. Then the human and chimpanzee lineages split apart. Of the various species they each gave rise to, only one human and two chimpanzee species remain. The very same evidence that proves that we evolved also proves our shared ancestry with modern non-human apes.
you guys are convincing me. and i don't mean that to sound pretentious or anything either, i'm just equally convinced that we never derived from apes, but i understand how we could have. i'm in two minds about it, i guess.

i still hold onto my "we were planted here" idea though, but only as a slight possibility.

you never know. we could be wrong, man. we could be wrong.
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  #39  
06-23-2015, 12:51 PM
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At this point, being wrong about that would be like being wrong about the shape of the Earth. There would have to be something that can account for the full suite of evidence we have for our current model. At this stage, that would have to be a brain-in-a-vat type revelation.
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  #40  
06-23-2015, 01:07 PM
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NO WE COULD BE WRONG

GOD DAMN IT

DON'T CRUSH MY DREAMS
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  #41  
06-23-2015, 01:56 PM
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YOU ARE THE SPAWN OF THIS PLANET

MONKEY BOY

AND YOU WILL LIKE IT
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  #42  
06-23-2015, 06:04 PM
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Ook

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  #43  
06-23-2015, 09:18 PM
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MA is scared, because it turns out Planet of the Apes wasn't that much of a fiction after all
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  #44  
06-23-2015, 11:58 PM
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If I ever meet MA and shake his hand, I'm going to recoil and scream "Take your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape!"
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  #45  
06-24-2015, 04:03 AM
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That's my usual behavior
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  #46  
06-24-2015, 07:28 AM
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We should all do that all the time. It should be normal etiquette.
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  #47  
06-25-2015, 12:37 AM
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You don’t already?
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  #48  
06-25-2015, 08:30 AM
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I don't shake hands. Just doing my bit to prevent this scenario:

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  #49  
06-26-2015, 12:18 AM
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But he didn't shake hands, dummy. He shook HEAD
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  #50  
06-26-2015, 10:11 AM
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For all I know, the fingered protuberance offered me will be its throbbing cock. Can't be too careful in a first contact scenario.
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06-26-2015, 10:19 AM
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I love the fact that the alien in the bottom-left corner has a face
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  #52  
06-30-2015, 08:34 AM
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There is no meaning of life. Not in the grand scheme of things people always seem to want anyway. Life appearing on this planet is nothing more than billions of tiny little variables being exactly right at the exact right time, a one in a gazillion freak accident.

As for the meaning of life on a smaller scale, like what is your own purpose in life... I guess that's up to individual people. Some want fame, some want riches, some are content sitting with their shotgun in front of their trailer drinking beer all day.

For me, since we are alive, I think it's our duty as the human race to explore the universe as much as we can and get to a point where we can't go extinct anymore (by settling multiple star systems and galaxies). Our solar system isn't going to be around forever. When the sun eventually burns out and takes us with it, it would be nice if we've spread out across the universe by then.
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  #53  
06-30-2015, 09:21 AM
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Average lifespan of a mammal species is three million years. I don't think modern humans are escaping that.

My fear is that we will, or already have, become too specialised to adapt further. A lot of species have died out that way. It's why the generalists never reign supreme, but continue to survive when others do not.

I also think that we should have higher aspirations for ourselves than sailing around the universe in sterile tin cans merely to survive. For example, we might learn to control our local environment in more positive ways. And if we learned to churn the sun, mix it's outer layers into the centre, we could increase its lifespan ten fold or more.
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  #54  
06-30-2015, 10:09 AM
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Humans have the advantage of technology though. Strictly speaking we wouldn't have to adapt to anything as long as we can create technology that adapts our surroundings to us or shields us from it.

Obviously with exploring the universe comes gaining knowledge and stuff. It's not just about surviving, it's about learning and technologically evolving even further.
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  #55  
06-30-2015, 10:14 AM
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By the time the Sun goes supernova there's no way in hell humans will still be around, we'll have either gone extinct or evolved beyond all comprehension.
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06-30-2015, 10:21 AM
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Well one would hope we discover some form interstellar travel in the next few hundred years. Like BM said, the human race won't survive if we can't get off this planet in time. So yeah the sun would be the least of our problems.
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  #57  
06-30-2015, 01:50 PM
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My fear is that we will, or already have, become too specialised to adapt further. A lot of species have died out that way. It's why the generalists never reign supreme, but continue to survive when others do not.
There is no point of fearing that. You will never know the outcome.
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  #58  
06-30-2015, 02:17 PM
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For me, since we are alive, I think it's our duty as the human race to explore the universe as much as we can and get to a point where we can't go extinct anymore (by settling multiple star systems and galaxies). Our solar system isn't going to be around forever. When the sun eventually burns out and takes us with it, it would be nice if we've spread out across the universe by then.
for once i agree with you. i really do believe we should be sending a lot more shit up into space than we are. we should be fucking out there, man. exploring and advancing us physically through space. the world really isn't big enough for all of us, and it will only get worse. we need to tighten our trousers as a race and take a step toward fucking realism; we cannot all happily co-exist here. there isn't enough fucking room. expand. colonise other planets. learn, or die horribly.

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I also think that we should have higher aspirations for ourselves than sailing around the universe in sterile tin cans merely to survive. For example, we might learn to control our local environment in more positive ways. And if we learned to churn the sun, mix it's outer layers into the centre, we could increase its lifespan ten fold or more.
it's still progress though. we need to take the necessary steps. if we don't take the plunge and start our interstellar age of sterile tin cans we may never reach a world(s) were we're churning the sun etc.

at the same time i want to know more about what we might be doing in the distant future. BM how the fuck are you so clever? seriously, i don't get it. i try. i listen and try to take everything in that people say but i just can't make it all stick. i'd never be able to remember stuff like that, let alone reiterate it fluently.
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  #59  
06-30-2015, 03:01 PM
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Humans have the advantage of technology though. Strictly speaking we wouldn't have to adapt to anything as long as we can create technology that adapts our surroundings to us or shields us from it.
That's not right we will still adapt. The environments we create for ourselves are comfortable, but not the kind we are adapted for. If we were, obesity would not be a human health issue. We may, in time, adapt to that if there is sufficient selection pressure via our relative reproductive success. The most likely scenario in that event, I think, would be that we no longer find fat and sugar so delicious. A behavioural change like that requires far less change than, say, our bodies adapting absorb less fat and sugar from our food, or even more extreme, to function healthily under obese conditions.

We could of course change our environment to provide us with less fat and sugar. But we don't want that because we're stuck liking it. What I mean with this example is that we have right now adaptive features that are useful in our original environment that cause us to construct artificial environments for ourselves that may themselves influence some future change away from our current form.

And if we move too far in that direction and then lose our ability to maintain those environments, then those new traits may well become a liability.

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for once i agree with you. i really do believe we should be sending a lot more shit up into space than we are. we should be fucking out there, man. exploring and advancing us physically through space. the world really isn't big enough for all of us, and it will only get worse. we need to tighten our trousers as a race and take a step toward fucking realism; we cannot all happily co-exist here. there isn't enough fucking room. expand. colonise other planets. learn, or die horribly.
It's not actually a far-seeing perspective though. Right now, the rate at which we can get human beings off-world is outstripped by several orders of magnitude by the birthrate. I don't see that changing much even in a fantastic sci-fi future. Planetary colonisation is not a solution to overpopulation for this reason. At best, we'll get a tiny population of human beings on a new planet (the genetics of which will be fascinating. I expect that they will be almost entirely white, like old science fiction was, unless India and China overtake Europe and the US. Actually, that's pretty likely), which, if successfully nurtured, will grow and develop until we have two overpopulated planets.

But how about escaping from environmental change? Anywhere we find to live will have to be Earth-like, and I know all about terraforming. I know that even the best terraformed planet will be unlike Earth in peculiar ways (gravity, solar radiation, magnetic field protection etc) and will take so much more time to accomplish than we can expect to have before the arrival of an impending disaster. I should think, though, that if we can make another planet Earth-like, then we would be able to make the Earth Earth-like too. However, deliberately altering the Earth's climate on that scale, even to fix it, well... that's an experiment we would be really dumb to try. Exactly as dumb as fucking up the Earth in the first place.

We can ruin the Earth one way or another and flee to a new one. That is what decades of science fiction has taught us to hope for. I say that this is dumb. We should hope for something much better. In this scenario, we are not escaping from the problem, we are bringing it with us. People! Those fuckers! We are exactly the kind of species that can ruin its home, bring a privileged few into space to find a new one, painstakingly construct a new home from scratch, and learn absolutely nothing from the experience. Whatever problem we are running from, we can expect to create anew at our destination.

No. Colonise the galaxy if you can, sure, I'm all down with that. But I see no scenario where humanity survives at all in which the Earth has not also survived.

I think it is time, in more ways than one, that we move away from the narratives of our future that we told ourselves in the last century. They aren't healthy, they aren't likely. Most of the promises we made for science and technology did not come true and in the world our parents have forged for us, they probably won't. We have so many problems right here that won't go away simply by assuming that they one day will. Our ideas for the future skip over that fight. Optimism is entirely unjustified. I really mean that. There is not a single solution to any of the problems facing humanity that can be successfully implemented without three crucial elements: non-corrupt government, accountable leadership, and a general approval for the performance of civic duty, and we need all of these globally. We will die here on this rock without them. What are our odds? The Earth will be both our cradle and our grave without a serious rethink, and science and technology by themselves are not enough. It's not enough to have solutions, you have to be able to employ them and be willing to pay the cost of doing so. We are spoiled, petulant, and privileged. I suspect that we will collectively refuse to do anything of the sort.

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at the same time i want to know more about what we might be doing in the distant future. BM how the fuck are you so clever? seriously, i don't get it. i try. i listen and try to take everything in that people say but i just can't make it all stick.
Try listening to all these while you play your videogames. Also, argue with the voices in your head all day long. They are clever, but they're also full of shit.
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Last edited by Bullet Magnet; 06-30-2015 at 03:04 PM..
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  #60  
06-30-2015, 04:14 PM
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Can someone please fill me in on the great secret as to why having Space Colonies means we don't go extinct in your ideal futures?
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